My Lords, as we glide through the final hour of the day, it is appropriate that we also glide through the final amendment. I congratulate the Government on the fact that the consultation on the Privacy and Civil Liberties Board ended on 30 January and we have new amendments to debate on 4 February. That is quite an achievement.
I am grateful to the Minister, as we are significantly better placed than we were when the Government first announced this back in July, when the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and I were debating the DRIPA legislation. This was announced with no detail, although the detail then emerged that this was going to replace the independent reviewer. The Government wisely listened to those who said that this was a dreadful idea and could not see the logic behind it—but we then moved into an area where there was a lack of clarity and confusion. The Minister will be aware that we put down significant amendments in Committee on this, and I greatly welcome the amendments today.
I am also grateful to the Minister for meeting me to discuss this issue. He knows it was of enormous concern to us. Although I share some of the reservations of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, we are in a much better place. From what we are seeing here and from what the independent reviewer, David Anderson, is saying, he will find a way to make the board work effectively and be useful to him. The noble Lord made the point about him asking for a junior counsel or barrister to work with him. It seems to me that he has the opportunity here, if the board is acting under his direction and control, for somebody who is on the board to fulfil that role for him. I would not envisage a secretariat of the board—I am not sure how much of a secretariat the board will need—but certainly a board acting under his direction and control will provide an opportunity for him.
The other issue that we raised in our amendments was that the remit of the board should deal specifically with the impact of counterterrorist legislation on communities. I know that the independent reviewer already sees that as part of his role, but it is not explicitly in the amendments before us today. I do not think it necessarily matters, as long as it is made clear that he continues to see that as he does at the moment.
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The issue was raised about the secret material to which he might have access. There is also an issue with the board, which I think is mitigated by the new amendments, that the independent reviewer—of necessity, through the work he does—builds up relationships internationally as well as nationally with people who will share information with him, which is essential to his assessment and the work that he does around counterterrorism legislation. We all want to work with him, and he will want to ensure that he does not jeopardise those relationships, so there needs to be some clarity at some point about the information that is available to the boards.
I understand and sympathise to some extent with Amendment 16A. I am not quite sure about paragraph (f), which refers to,
“any provision of immigration and nationality law to the extent it is used for counter-terrorism purposes”.
I am not sure how often immigration and nationality law is used for counterterrorism, but it often impacts on counterterrorism. I would have thought that the impact of such laws was of more value and more interest. It might be helpful to Parliament and to Government to have opportunities and occasions where
that examination by the independent reviewer—taken in context with other legislation specifically on counterterrorism—would be useful, but I am not sure I would specifically limit it.
One area that I was considering was the policies and guidance relative to counterterrorism, particularly in relation to intelligence-sharing policy and guidance. That might be an area that he will want to look at in the future, because that indeed directly impacts on counterterrorism. I understand the points being made; it probably gives some flexibility. I also understand the issue about resources, but flexibility is probably going to be essential because laws do not exist in a vacuum. I entirely agree that we do not want to find that we are duplicating roles and overlapping the work and operation of other commissioners or the independent reviewer of borders and immigration legislation. There will be areas where the Government will need to have some flexibility for the independent reviewer to ensure that he effectively reviews counterterrorism legislation without missing some important information that impacts on that. I congratulate the Government; this is a significantly better amendment than what was before us when it was first announced at various stages, and it has our full support.