Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

My Lords, we come today to Part 4 of the Bill and the much debated topic of the Pubs Code and the...

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that introduction. I have two amendments in this grou...

My Lords, I also have a number of amendments in this group. I think the answer to the noble Lord’...

My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, proceeds, the point made by my noble friend Lord B...

Is my noble friend suggesting that the Minister should withdraw her amendments as well?

Yes, my Lords.

Good.

Before the Minister replies, I endorse and agree with the remarks made by my noble friends. On Se...

My Lords, I think we are still intervening on the speech of my noble friend Lord Hodgson on these...

I find it difficult to imagine that someone with such a distinguished record as the Deputy Chief ...

That is as may be, but I hope, if the noble Lord thinks that I have diverted from my previous cou...

My Lords, I do not know whether it is appropriate for me to stand up before noble Lords start to ...

I thought I heard the Minister say that she has not met Greg Mulholland. It is surprising that a ...

The noble Lord makes a good point. The Secretary of State and Jo Swinson have been intimately inv...

My Lords, when I was interrupted a minute or two ago I was explaining that I had some amendments ...

If, as the noble Lord implies, the tie is not the principal reason behind the unhappiness of many...

I do not say that the tie is perfect. In fact, I was about to say that the tie has had its imperf...

Again, can the noble Lord give us some examples? If CAMRA has got it wrong and he has got it righ...

The noble Lord is very kindly almost making my speech for me. I was about to say—

Doing a better job, I hope.

I was about to say that in the 25,000 or so examples of tied tenancies, I do not doubt that there...

Looking at the list of groupings, it appears that the first amendment in the name of the noble Lo...

I hope I made it clear to the Committee that I was trying to give a bit of a tour d’horizon of ho...

Has the noble Lord reflected on the wording of Amendments 73 and 74? Does he feel that, as presen...

Well, the focus in these pubs is on the beer—and possibly cider—because that is what is really es...

No, the point that I am seeking to make is that if the amendment is accepted, it appears to stop ...

My wording is focused on beer and cider and not on other products at all. I think the clause is c...

I am sorry to keep interrupting; I am asking him to define his own amendments here. Brewers do no...

There are two parts to this. The question is whether the tenant is being forced to take supplies ...

Has the noble Lord thought about what the word “unfair” means? For the pubco, it is probably diff...

I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said that. I am about to come to the definitio...

In this grouping, my Amendment 69A is the next one that is not a government amendment, so if it i...

On Amendment 80, if it were a retail outlet such as a high street store, there would be no reason...

It is a question of what would constitute selling and what would be transferring it to a company ...

My Lords, I speak in favour of my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots. First, given the in...

My Lords, to respond to some of the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, I say in passing ...

The noble Lord has provoked me enough. I was sent a book this thick by some of the pubcos contain...

The first question about that association, whatever it was he said, is: who is funding them in th...

I understand that the noble Lord wishes to find fault with my proposals. The amendment relates to...

I am sorry that the noble Lord feels that I am out to find fault with his amendments. He should n...

My Lords, I start by saying how pleased I am to hear from my noble friend the Minister that the s...

Can the noble Lord tell us of any pubcos which are financially successful under the present arran...

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for his comment, but I would like to make the point. The gist...

I apologise for interrupting again. My point was in response to the noble Lord’s comment about th...

We perhaps need to talk about individual cases, but it is generally perceived that because of the...

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord for the third time. To take two examples—Enterprise Inns a...

I note the noble Lord’s point. I would like to illustrate some of the amounts that these pub comp...

The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, has given two more examples to add those of the noble Lord, Lor...

I take the noble Lord’s point, but I spoke in support of my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s amendment...

The issue is that every company has a target return on capital. If it is to make an investment, i...

With respect, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”. I am glad that the cavalry has been brought ...

The truth of the matter is that every time an argument is produced to point out how pubcos operat...

I am sorry, my Lords, but I will try just one last time. The rate of return could just as easily ...

Having been listening to my debate, I should conclude. I should answer the question appropriately...

My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this huge group. I should point out that none of them ...

I would be grateful if my noble friend would not portray me as being a raving left-winger on thes...

In that case, my noble friend and I are on exactly the same point in the ideological spectrum—as ...

My Lords, I want to speak to Amendments 82A and 83A and thereby take in my noble friend’s Amendme...

My Lords, I worked for most of my life in a sector where we were often referred to as being in th...

My Lords, I want to clarify one thing in response to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson...

The noble Lord makes a very important point about what will be in the legislation and what will b...

As I am pressed, there are a number of details where that balance is the issue we have to address...

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in a helpful discussion. When we saw the groupi...

Can we therefore take it that the trigger points will not include the sale of a pub, provided the...

My Lords, that is the proposal set out in the Government’s amendments.

Will the Minister confirm whether she is looking at any protection for people who, when a company...

My Lords, I hope I will cover that to the noble Lord’s satisfaction in a minute. I return to Amen...

Again, I apologise for interrupting my noble friend, and I am grateful for the detailed response ...

I thank the noble Lord for raising that point. There is a link to the stocking requirement, which...

I thought that it was the wicked noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, who was seeking to deny tenants this p...

Perhaps I can move on to further amendments.

The market rent only amendment introduced in t...

Before we get to that, could the Minister please clarify what she said, quite a long time ago in ...

I thank the noble Lord for raising that point. The confusion may arise because it is within 12 mo...

If it will help the Minister to deal with this, I could speak for a little longer. I thank her fo...

Before the noble Lord sits down and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, takes the Floor, the answer is 1...

My Lords, I am not sure that the Minister is procedurally correct to say that I have the first Am...

Okay. I welcome the lecture on procedure and apologise for not getting it right. As a new Ministe...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

68Q: Clause 41, page 37, line 37, leave out “all prov...

Moved by

Lord Berkeley

68T: Clause 41, page 38, line 19, at end insert—

“( ) re...

I hope we can deal with this group of amendments a bit more quickly than the previous group becau...

In the situation envisaged under Amendment 68U, could the guest beer be provided by the brewery t...

I am sorry, I did not quite hear.

Under Amendment 68U, can the guest beer be provided by the brewery that owns the pub?

Of course it could, but to some extent that defeats the object, because if it is a tied pub, the ...

I do not object, and I do not think my noble friend does either, to pubcos insisting that their t...

My noble friend raises an interesting issue. It is quite reasonable that a pubco that has a tied ...

I thank my noble friend Lord Berkeley for some excellent amendments. It is important to understan...

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for these amendments. In the spirit of ...

I am grateful to the Minister and to my noble friends for their responses. On Amendment 68T, I th...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

69ZA: Clause 41, page 38, line 20, leave out “large”<...

Tabled by

Lord Whitty

69ZC: Clause 42, page 38, line 30, leave out from beginning to ...

My Lords, this amendment is the first in my name relating to Clause 42. Clearly, I cannot press i...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

89A: Clause 42, leave out Clause 42 and insert the fo...

I will be extremely brief, as the Minister has dealt with most of the points that arose from the ...

Once again, the trade is under pressure and the noble Lord assumes that it is all due to the tie....

Again, I accept that, but the noble Lord must accept that when Back-Benchers rebel in the way tha...

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for raising that point. First, I emphasise that we h...

I thank the Minister for that undertaking, and for the way that she has conducted the Committee s...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

89B: After Clause 42, insert the following new Clause...

Moved by

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

90: Clause 43, page 40, line 26, at end inser...

My Lords, after three and a quarter hours on the first set of amendments, I shall be exceptionall...

My Lords, I hope that I can reassure my noble friend that the Pubs Code will be the subject of fu...

I thank the Minister. I accept her explanation of all three amendments, and I beg leave to withdr...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

90ZA: Clause 43, page 40, line 29, leave out “and (if...

Moved by

Lord Berkeley

90A: After Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—

“...

My Lords, this amendment concerns how the adjudicator takes into account the various financial fa...

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his amendment and I am looking forward to visiting ...

I am very grateful to the Minister. The amendment came through after I went through all this. I a...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

90AA: Clause 44, page 41, line 11, after “with” inser...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

90AC: Clause 59, page 47, line 17, leave out “under t...

Moved by

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

90B: Clause 60, page 47, line 30, leave out “...

My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 90C. We come to Clause 60 about levy funding. This bring...

My Lords, these amendments relate to Clause 60, which will enable the adjudicator to levy funds o...

My Lords, my noble friend has brought us back to the extraordinary aspect of the parliamentary dr...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

91ZA: Clause 65, page 49, line 34, at end insert—

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

91ZB: Clause 66, page 49, line 39, leave out subsecti...

My Lords, the tied model has long been part of our history. As my noble friend Lord Hodgson said,...

My Lords, I advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to it pre-empts Amendments 91A ...

My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 91D in this group. Its purpose is to remove uncertainty an...

My Lords, I have three amendments in this group which go in exactly the opposite direction of the...

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I have taken common cause on various things but he will not be s...

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, indicates why this needs more discussion. He is right on ...

My Lords, in this group is my motion that Clause 68 stand part of the Bill. This is an interestin...

My Lords, I have only a few points to make on these matters as the issues have already been cover...

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friends and to noble Lords for their amendments. We are, of c...

My Lords, I must advise that if Amendment 91AD is agreed then Amendments 91B to 91CA will be pre-...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

91AA: Clause 66, page 50, line 1, leave out “But regu...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

91E: Clause 66, page 50, line 19, leave out “subsecti...

Moved by

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

93: Clause 67, page 50, line 27, leave out pa...

My Lords, Amendment 93 could be called, in shorthand terms, the “shopping around clause”. My nobl...

My Lords, I hope that I can reassure my noble friend Lord Hodgson on this point. Evidence from th...

I am grateful to my noble friend. His remarks make clear that the Government have hoisted on boar...

Moved by

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

94: Clause 67, page 50, leave out line 43

Amendments 94 and 95 once again concern Clause 67, the definition clause—in particular, the defin...

My Lords, I enter the debate with some trepidation after the way that it was introduced. I, too, ...

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for his amendments on tenancies at will. I was ver...

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that commitment. I am not stuck on 12 months. All I thi...

Moved by

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

96: Clause 67, page 50, line 43, at end inser...

My Lords, this amendment is concerned with the franchise of pub operations. I have remarked repea...

I really cannot imagine how anyone would want to take a franchise like this. It is a variation on...

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for this amendment on franchises and the noble Lor...

My Lords, on a rather sour note, I am afraid that that was a very disappointing response. To say ...

I have never heard of one but I am sure the noble Lord can tell us.

There are probably 400 or 500. The idea is that it is a very easy way for a tenant to start in th...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

96ZA: Clause 68, page 51, line 22, leave out from “of...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

96ZB: Clause 69, page 51, line 33, at end insert—

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

97: Clause 152, page 141, line 24, leave out “section...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

99: After Clause 152, insert the following new Clause...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

100: Clause 153, page 142, line 23, leave out “sectio...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

101A: Clause 154, page 142, line 29, after “1” insert...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

102: Clause 156, page 143, line 18, leave out “sectio...

Moved by

Lord Mendelsohn

102ZA: Clause 156, page 143, line 19, at end insert—

“...

My Lords, I guess that the least welcome comment would be, “It may be a one line clause but I hav...

I am very much hoping that my noble friend will be able to reassure us that there are and have be...

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment and for giving me the opportunity to say somet...

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. On our amendment, all I would say is that between n...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

102A: Clause 157, page 144, line 9, leave out “sectio...

Moved by

Baroness Neville-Rolfe

103: Clause 157, page 144, line 29, at end insert—