Recall of MPs Bill

My Lords, I support Amendment 37. I am very well aware of this issue from my own experience in no...

My Lords, I did not speak at Second Reading, although I attended much of the debate and followed ...

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee: I have to go to the Joint Committee on the National Secur...

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was probably wrong to suggest that such a small number of c...

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I have not spoken previously on the Bill although I...

My noble friend did have a rather larger majority than I had and, of course, I had an easy task c...

There was one election at which my majority was only 700 and something. It was therefore all the ...

My Lords, I referred briefly to this issue at Second Reading. I confirm my support for the amendm...

My Lords, it is a remarkable fact that in the course of debate on the Bill not a single former Me...

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, mentioned that in her erstwhile constituency some peo...

In my village there is one bus every week—in the wrong direction.

My Lords, like many others who have spoken this afternoon, I have not taken part in the Bill so f...

My Lords, not long after I came into this place, the Labour Whip approached me and asked me to su...

Will my noble friend tell us what it costs to ride on those ferries?

It costs more and more each time, although to be fair costs may go down soon because the cost of ...

When the noble Lord says that it is sensible to give discretion to the person in charge, is not t...

That is true; we are giving him an impossible task. I hope that the noble Lord is not blaming me ...

My Lords, I hesitate again to interrupt the noble Lord in his wonderfully nostalgic speech rangin...

There have been terrible things over the past five years but we lost that general election. I do ...

This is getting somewhat absurd, even for the noble Lord. The Bill is in the hands of Mr Greg Cla...

I used to be a junior Minister as well. I know that the Secretary of State, or in this case the D...

Oh!

These are the merits of the Bill. I thought the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made very good points in ...

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment, which should be read in conjunction with Amend...

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, managed to entertain us for more than an hour during the ...

That was not continuous.

Absolutely, it was absolutely not—it was repetitive. This Bill has been considered by a number of...

Has the Minister come to any conclusion on that matter?

Let us discuss it off the Floor of the House rather than detain the Committee further.

Of c...

Will the Minister write to us before Report with a detailed analysis of the costings that led the...

I will be happy to promise that we will reconsider that and I will write. Perhaps it is also wort...

I am most grateful to my noble friend. If all this has been so carefully thought through, why are...

My Lords, since I have not looked in detail at the assessment, I cannot directly answer that. I a...

This is a very serious matter. The Minister said that none of the regulations will be ready befor...

My Lords, I was not aware that I had said “none” of them. A sketch of the regulations—which I am ...

The Minister says that these things take time and have to be done carefully, but it is some four ...

My Lords, the Government have been fairly busy with a range of issues. We have perhaps taken long...

With respect to the Minister, I am afraid that we are discussing the Bill because of discussions ...

My Lords, I have stressed several things. The details of premises used, and other arrangements, a...

Would it not have been sensible to have had the discussions with the local authorities about how ...

My Lords, the noble Lord is being a little mischievous. There have of course been extensive discu...

Does the Minister recollect that the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee advised the Go...

My Lords, I do not recollect that. I recognise that all those in this House who have been MPs are...

The Minister will have to do a bit better than that. Outside the Houses of Parliament there are t...

My Lords, as I walked down the main street in Saltaire on Saturday, I saw on the noticeboard outs...

Having had the courage to say that to the hairdresser, did the Minister have the courage to stay ...

Not there.

I have heard all these suggestions from various noble Lords that this is completely impossible an...

My Lords, the recall process takes place in a number of other democratic countries. It is an esta...

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, asked whether we were putting the cart before the horse. ...

Moved by

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

38: Clause 7, page 6, line 8, leave out “10th” and i...

My Lords, I move this amendment with some concern and some disappointment, having heard the Minis...

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord was listening to the response that I gave to the previous am...

That was not what I took from it, but I am glad that he has confirmed that that is the case. I ho...

Oh!

Well, one of them has come in, but the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, was not elected: he got in o...

In fairness to the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, he does write jokes for the Prime Minister.

That surprises me. They are not very good jokes, are they? They are not as good as mine anyway, t...

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 39. As my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth put it a few min...

My Lords, perhaps the Minister can explain to us why eight weeks is thought to be a suitable term...

My Lords, there has often been a wonderful use of the words “with due respect” in this Chamber on...

The noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, really should use his words carefully. No one in this Committee...

Oh!

All right, we can see that noble Lords think that it is funny, but I do not think that it is funn...

If it is genuinely the case that nobody has questioned the need for the Bill then I have not been...

My noble friend has just commented on ad hominem remarks and so on, but I regard that as rather a...

The last thing that I would want to do is to offend my noble friend. However, the point was made ...

My Lords, having taken part in the Second Reading and then read it in Hansard, my recollection is...

Well, I would be delighted to hear the proposals for recall that are not the ones included in the...

I wonder if the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, could help me—he is know -ledgeable about these thi...

That is an excellent question. Somebody who breaks the law and does not sit in the House of Commo...

The noble Lord is talking about hostility to the Bill, but the amendment that we were discussing ...

Yes, I was glad to hear the Minister suggest that he will pay attention to the debate, and I look...

My Lords, perhaps I can claim a level of expertise about the recall of MPs because I myself have ...

May I just clarify something? Is the noble Lord suggesting that if the Bill is introduced, it wil...

It would not impel anyone to do anything; but if this unnecessary Bill was on the statute book it...

Just for further clarification, the noble Lord suggests that one of the advantages of passing thi...

I am saying that they would be dealing with the ludicrous situation of an eight-week period—but I...

My Lords, perhaps I can intervene in what seems at the moment like a Second Reading debate. The n...

My Lords—

Perhaps I need to further clarify that exactly the same procedure happened in my own case.

My Lords, I will get in eventually. I outlined my alternative to the Bill on Second Reading. Addr...

My Lords, I support Amendment 39. I will follow on from the comment made by my noble friend Lord ...

My Lords, I support Amendments 38 and 39. I will ask the Minister a couple of genuine questions. ...

My Lords, the discussion about the role of different professions is interesting. I hope that the ...

My noble friend referred to the long period of time leading up to a general election. However, th...

There are two different issues here: making up your mind on the matter and the procedures involve...

This debate has ranged a great deal wider than the two amendments before us. I again remind the C...

As the Minister is praying in aid the committee that gave the Bill pre-legislative scrutiny, he n...

I am fully prepared to accept that, but I also note that this Bill passed through the other place...

Does the Minister accept that we on the Front Bench have endorsed the Bill and are trying to make...

I entirely accept that the Front-Benchers are committed to that and I wish that noble Lords elsew...

I ask the Minister, since I am no longer involved in the question of postal voting, what is now t...

Since I have taken the regulations through I should know the answer to that, but I do not now rec...

I am sorry, but the Minister just told us how he brought all this legislation through the House a...

I certainly remember what it is about. I do not remember the exact period. I think we have extend...

I find it difficult to understand what the Minister is saying sometimes. Is he going to accept, i...

I did not say that. The other place has passed this legislation and I am not yet persuaded. The e...

I wish the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, were here because I can understand what he is saying. I fin...

No!

The logic behind the amendment is impeccable—nevertheless, I beg leave to withdraw it.

My Lords, we have given notice or our intention to oppose the Question that Clause 8 stand part o...

My Lords, I share the concerns expressed. The Government need to think long and hard about the pr...

My Lords, I recognise that this is a very important point. The Government take on board that they...

Will the Minister also tell us whether he has taken or will take advice from the law officers? Wh...

I will certainly take action on that. The question of how far the right to privacy extends in thi...

My Lords, clearly the Government have still not made up their mind about this. What I most regret...

Perhaps I may draw attention to the fact that Clause 23 does actually extend to Northern Ireland....

My Lords, I understand that this is a serious matter which we need to get right. On that basis, I...

I am still not very clear about how the petition will be signed or how a voter can indicate their...

My understanding is that the postal voter will be sent a form with the words as stated on the fac...

In all my experience of petitions, they are public documents. The other place is famous for petit...

My Lords, I recognise that, but on the other hand the secrecy of the ballot is also a very seriou...

If there is a petition with only one question on it and you sign the petition, everyone must know...

My Lords, the question of intimidation has been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, and others,...

The Minister has said that he is going to come back: will he tell us when he is going to come bac...

I suspect that the noble Lord may be surprised if I am not here at Report: that was what I was re...

Moved by

Lord Kennedy of Southwark

40: Clause 9, page 6, line 37, leave out subsectio...

My Lords, this amendment deletes from the Bill the wording on the petition that will be used when...

If Amendment 40 is agreed to, I will be unable to call Amendments 41 to 43 because of pre-emption...

My Lords, I have been thinking very carefully about this idea of the wording in the Bill. As the ...

My Lords, I respectfully suggest to the House that the suggestion and proposal made by the noble ...

When the Minister replies, will he explain to the Committee why the Government have not, apparent...

My Lords, I hesitate to suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has come to the debate a littl...

That is just what I said. It has been only informally consulted. I do not understand why it has n...

My Lords, the Electoral Commission unavoidably has a formal role throughout this process and has ...

I asked the Minister who would do the testing if was not to be the commission. He has not answere...

My Lords, I apologise. I do not have that detailed information at my fingertips, but I will write...

Will the Minister make something clear? If it is in the Bill and the Bill is enacted, it is too l...

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord was listening carefully. I apologise if I did not speak c...

I thank the noble Lord for his response. I look forward to receiving his letter on the matter tha...

Moved by

Lord Hamilton of Epsom

41: Clause 9, page 7, line 1, leave out “10%” and ins...

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 41 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes and Lord Hughe...

Has the noble Lord reflected on the fact that he has just undermined the very good case that he h...

Mr Goldsmith would be in a very strong position to hire his own fleet of cars, absolutely. I must...

My Lords, the percentage of people required to trigger the by-election is certainly a very seriou...

I thank my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom for his serious and persuasive speech, and the nob...

Does my noble friend not accept my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s argument that by that time, the Me...

It may be that he or she would be deselected by their party but I did not really understand the r...

Will my noble friend not consider that a by-election cannot be an anti-recall petition in the 85%...

I understand the point that the noble Lord is making. It is not a pure mechanism, merely on recal...

My Lords, Amendments 41 and 51, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, both seem ...

My Lords, I do not intend to go through all the arguments as I have dealt with them on previous a...

My Lords, I think that only these Benches could participate in these petitions since we have a ri...

My Lords, I argued at Second Reading that this Bill would not achieve its purpose, which is to re...

My Lords, this is a heroic attempt to create, as my noble friend said, a level playing field. I a...

My Lords, I found the travels of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, around the highways and byways of...

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate and I have listened carefully and seriously to all ...

The noble Lord is invariably fair-minded. Is he really relaxed about and content with arrangement...

I understand that, of course, but the whole purpose of the legislation is for the three triggers ...

Does the Minister accept the very powerful point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of...

My Lords, perhaps I may just add to my point. I take what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, ...

My Lords, I think this goes to the heart of the issue. If one believes that the three serious tri...

I am afraid that the Minister misunderstood what I said. The recall provision can be triggered on...

I understand that. That is why I say that it comes to a different view and a different impression...

I am most grateful to the Minister, who is long-suffering. Even if we accept that there should be...

My Lords, I will continue and I hope that it will then unfold. Obviously there can be moot discus...

My Lords, I apologise that I was not here for the earlier part of the debate; I was attending the...

My noble friend is of course entitled to his opinion and has made the point a number of times abo...

One point of clarification would help me. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, put the case that cars—a...

I thank the noble Lord for that point. We will come to amendments on precisely those sorts of mat...

For the last hour or so, led by the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, everyone has gone on about seri...

The legislation is very clear that if a Member of Parliament were convicted and sent to prison fo...

That is an automatic disqualification—I understand and accept that. However, the situation is tha...

My Lords, I would be surprised if any magistrate did that—I think of the requirements to be a mag...

My Lords—

I will finish this—I am sorry. It would be a very serious accusation to suggest that people in pu...

I have great respect for the Minister, but I am afraid that he is exhibiting a little bit of naiv...

My Lords, I am sure that the Government do not wish to prolong this debate unduly, but that is a ...

With the greatest respect, both to the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—and I have great...

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that further contribution. The Bill is about these ...

I am very disappointed with my noble friend, because I think that we proved very conclusively how...

Moved by

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

43: Clause 9, page 7, leave out line 5 and insert “...

Moved by

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

45: Clause 10, page 7, line 14, leave out “18” and i...

My Lords, Amendments 45, 46 and 48 are further attempts to try to improve the Bill, not to challe...

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 56. It states:

“After Clause 13, insert the following new Cl...

I am grateful to the noble Lord—what he said is absolutely right. If someone found themselves in ...

I accept that entirely. Of course, the decision will be made by the constituency party, not so mu...

My Lords, I sympathise with the argument put forward so eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes...

My Lords, I take a contrary view. Indeed, I strongly opposed the idea of giving 16 year-olds a vo...

My Lords, the Government obviously do not want any change to the Bill at all, if they can achieve...

My Lords, I have said, I think three times now, that the Bill follows existing electoral law and ...

Can the Minister point to me anywhere in existing electoral law where, during a general election,...

Is it not the case that if anyone goes to the opening of a postal ballot and then reveals the res...

Yes, it is a very serious offence. But we have been assured by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that...

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. I should say straightaway that I am a supporter of...

Will the noble Lord indicate which side of the argument he is on regarding whether the names of t...

I think that the Government are going to consult on that and will come back on it. They have not ...

I should make it clear that my amendment does not say that the names should be published but simp...

My Lords, I was sorry to hear my noble friend Lord Tyler talk about a holistic approach. I critic...

I have never used it since.

The noble Lord has not yet used it since. I stress again that we are following the existing law a...

The noble Lord is talking about two entirely different situations. If one is voting in a conventi...

My Lords, I have already said that we have now extended the period for postal voting. Indeed, pos...

The Minister has already said he will look at the issue of whether the names will be public or se...

My Lords, I am not persuaded by that. There are questions of intimidation regarding giving the na...

The Minister keeps saying that he is following general practice as far as possible. This is an en...

I will come to the noble Lord’s other amendment. I was talking about the amendment on the right t...

Is the Minister then saying, if we are following existing practice, that that would mean it is a ...

The noble Lord, sadly, was absent at his committee when we were discussing the question of secrec...

I am not asking my noble friend to repeat an earlier debate. What I am asking is very simple: whe...

My Lords, we spent some considerable time on this issue. When you sign a petition you do so with ...

My Lords, this has become a farce. Where it suits the Government’s aims they stick to electoral l...

My Lords, in relation to my amendment, may I make clear that on the day of the general election—I...

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has withdrawn his amendment.

Moved by

Lord Kennedy of Southwark

47: Clause 10, page 7, line 27, at end insert—

My Lords, this amendment is proposed by myself and my noble friend Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. I...

My Lords, Clause 10 provides for regulations to specify the detail of how constituents may sign b...

Will the principle that my noble friend has enunciated—that we will follow the normal conventions...

I need to confirm that, but I have no reason to assume that we will not follow normal and regular...

I must say to my noble friend that it is not mischievous. We are not being mischievous; we are tr...

On the question of the deadline for the applications for postal votes, it is normal in an electio...

In my contribution I talked about the code of conduct regarding postal voting that the Electoral ...

That is a very good and detailed question on which I need to take some advice. I will ensure that...

I thank the noble Lord and at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Moved by

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

52: Clause 13, page 9, line 17, at end insert—

Moved by

Lord Hughes of Woodside

55: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause...

My Lords, I appreciate that the tabling of this amendment leaves me open to the possibility of be...

My Lords, I shall be very brief because I know that noble Lords are waiting for the next debate. ...

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot support the noble Lord’s amendment because it would be almost...

My Lords, the probing amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Hughes of Woodside raises the im...

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, for his amendment, which intends tha...

Someone once said that the road to hell was paved with good intentions. In my initial remarks, I ...