My Lords, in moving on to this large group of amendments, we move to an entirely new part of the Bill, which deals with the regulation of the nuclear industry and, in particular, with the creation of the Office for Nuclear Regulation. That body is currently operating in shadow form within the HSE.
I need to thank the Minister and her department for a number of things. This is a large section of the Bill; I said at Second Reading that it was an extremely large section. It was not seriously considered line by line in the House of Commons and we, as the House of Lords, have an obligation to look at it.
I asked the Minister to provide me with an indication of where the regulatory structure of the new ONR, as compared with the previous powers of the HSE, had changed. I thank her for the letter she sent me clearly setting that out.
I congratulate the department on an important breakthrough—it must have had a hell of a job with parliamentary counsel—in managing to put everything relating to the ONR in one place in one Bill. Noble Lords’ previous experience is that, as with the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act, the Financial Services Act and the Public Bodies Act, there is a tendency for parliamentary counsel always to refer back to at least one layer, and often several layers, of previous legislation. It is therefore important that most of what will apply to the ONR is here in one place. I congratulate whoever negotiated with parliamentary counsel to that effect.
However, there are still some uncertainties and a lack of clarity, and possibly some tightening up can be done. It is important that we all recognise that we are creating regulations for a new body that is to oversee a major source of our energy. It is complex and controversial in both political and public relations terms; it is changing over time; and local, national and international issues are involved. It is therefore important that we get the regulation right.
I have tabled a number of amendments, most of which are probing. Subject to what the Minister says, I doubt we shall need to return to any of them on Report. They deal with issues of scope, relations with other bodies engaged in the nuclear industry, the effect of the health and safety provisions on workers on nuclear sites and governance, finance and staff transfer.
Perhaps I may make one other general point. The noble Baroness and other Ministers will be aware that the Delegated Powers Committee, although it did not reserve its most scathing comments for this part of the Bill but for Chapters 2 and 3 of Part 2, made substantial propositions on how the order-making function under this part of the Bill should operate. Regrettably, I had not read that report, which was published on 28 June, in time to meet the deadline for tabling amendments. It would be helpful if the Minister could indicate, either in total at the beginning of that part of the Bill
or as we reach the relevant clauses, how the Government intend to deal with the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee.
Amendment 38E and other amendments in the group deal with the scope of the ONR and its regulatory authority. The principal issue is the sites which ONR will cover. The definition in the Bill is largely in relation to sites rather than activities, although activities circularly define sites that need to have licences. We need to know which sites we are talking about because many sites which deal with nuclear and radioactive matters will not be covered by the ONR or by the regulations in the way that they are reflected in this section of the Bill. There are, of course, substantial defence sites that deal with nuclear matter and nuclear materials; there are transportation issues, not all of which seem to be covered; and there are radioactive materials, processes and operations being conducted in a wide range of sites across industry, universities, research functions and the National Health Service. Therefore, we need to be absolutely clear what the ONR relates to.
Most of the non-nuclear industry sites are not really governed by the nuclear regulations, although some of them are, and certainly not by the ONR as it will be, but we need to be clear where those divides operate. Therefore, this group of amendments seeks to make that a bit clearer. Amendment 38B would make it clear that this provision relates to civil sites. There may be some ambiguity here because defence establishments, which are, as I understand it, regulated by the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator, often have some quasi-civilian activity. If it is clear that even those activities are excluded from the ONR, we probably need to make that clear in the Bill, and that is why I suggest that we insert the word “civil”.
Amendment 38D proposes that, once it is clear which sites we are operating on, the Secretary of State or the ONR should be obliged to provide a public list of such sites. At the moment, such sites are defined by whether they have a licence. The licences may well be listed but licences may be at various levels of scrutiny. We need an absolute list somewhere in the system of what sites the ONR regards as nuclear sites for the purposes of the Bill.
There is also a reference in Clause 57 to “associated sites”. Whereas there is a definition of nuclear sites by reference to the licence and a definition of nuclear matter and nuclear material by reference to other regulations, there is no definition of associated sites. I have therefore offered a definition, although I think that it may be far too wide. However, certainly unless we explain “associated sites”, it will be difficult to know what is and is not covered by that.
Amendment 40N deals with the issue that I have just described—that is, sites that do not yet have a licence but are moving towards being areas that would require a licence. As the nuclear industry expands on the generation side, as well as perhaps into other activities, we will expect sites to be in various degrees of preparation. Not long ago, Hinkley Point C, which I have visited on a number of occasions, did not have a licence or planning permission and it had not met all the other requirements in order to set up a nuclear
power station. Obviously the functioning power stations and the ones that closed had all those things covered, but the area of Hinkley Point C could not yet be designated as a site because it did not have a licence. Every prospective nuclear power station site will have a period before it gets a licence to operate. We need to make sure that that is also covered and that it is clearly the ONR’s responsibility and, to some extent, the responsibility of other organisations, which I shall come to in a separate group of amendments.
There is also the issue of transport. It is clear that the ONR will now be inheriting from the HSE not only road transport but rail transport, which previously came under the ORR and the rail regulations. It is also clear in this draft that the ONR will cover shipping. However, aviation is a rather difficult issue. Although not much civil nuclear material will be carried in aircraft, some will be, and, if the ONR is not the regulator for its transportation by air, it needs to be made clear who is. At a quick glance, I could not see whether the CAA’s responsibilities covered this, and the Minister may be able to put me right on that, but we need to know whether, if I am suggesting that we also cover air transport, where that responsibility lies.
Therefore, in this first group, there are several issues relating to scope. It would be helpful to have some clarity now but, if the noble Baroness and her advisers feel that it would be better to write to me and other noble Lords, then I shall be perfectly happy with that. I beg to move.
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