My Lords, I often think how well served we are by the depth and richness of the judicial talent that serves here in the House of Lords. I often think it, but perhaps not tonight.
This has been an interesting debate, full of mea culpas. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, cannot quite remember how he let this through the committee on which he was serving; the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, must have nodded when it went through; and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, said that the previous Government did not get it perfectly right. The fact is that this is an Act of Parliament carried by the previous Administration. I was very pleased to find out the intentions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, at the last minute, although they did not really surprise me, but it seems strange that we should be discussing this.
Let me make my position perfectly clear. One of the things of which I am most proud in my parliamentary life is the steadfastness with which the Liberal Democrats delivered the votes in this House to carry through the reform that delivered us the Supreme Court. I have been a strong believer in the Supreme Court from that time—I think a little ahead of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, in devotion to the separation of powers—and that should stand in the record about my attitude to this amendment.
Of course it is possible for your Lordships to send strong messages to the other place. Let us remember that very shortly another place will be debating this Bill. However, I urge noble Lords to ponder whether it is the best way to send such a message. The Lord Chancellor can read, and I will make sure that part of his Christmas reading is the Hansard of this debate, but negotiations are going on. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, asked whether the discussions have run into the ground. No, there has been discussion at official level in the two weeks since this issue was raised, and the letter that was quoted was from the Lord Chancellor to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, pointing out that the Government are still considering this matter.
Let me clarify for the record that the Government do not have any concerns about the accountability of the UK Supreme Court. While there is no doubt that the Executive has a legitimate interest in the effective and efficient administration of all courts—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, made very eloquently—the Government fully respect the independence of the judiciary and our duty to uphold that independence.
The amendment tabled reflects concerns about the present arrangements concerning the appointment of the chief executive, the staffing arrangements for the court and the ramifications of those arrangements for the independence of the court. This is a matter of great constitutional importance—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I emphasise that it is a matter of great constitutional importance, so when the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, with the impetuosity
of a young solicitor says, “Why can’t this be handled?”, it is because it is a matter of great constitutional importance. It has been raised by a former president of the Supreme Court. It has been raised today by former high office holders—Attorneys-General, Lord Chief Justices and other Supreme Court justices. Nobody is underestimating its importance. However, I most humbly say—I am beginning to learn how lawyers manage to insult each other with the most exquisite politeness—that on a matter of this constitutional importance, where the Lord Chancellor of the day is saying that he is in negotiations and discussions with the president of the Supreme Court, it is not particularly helpful for this House to pass an amendment on the hoof in this way.
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As I have said, the amendment tabled reflects the concerns, but the issue before us now is how the court’s administration should be run and what involvement the Government should have in the appointment of a civil servant as chief executive. There is no easy answer to the question. Indeed, during the passage of the Constitutional Reform Bill this question was debated at length in both Houses and by the Constitution Committee. A huge amount of thought and debate was exercised over the issue of the Lord Chancellor’s relationship with the court, the court’s administration and whether, through this conduit, the Executive might impinge on what was termed the corporate independence of the court. This was back in 2005. The present arrangements were the culmination of that lengthy process and an agreement between the Lord Chancellor of the day and the senior Law Lord. It is not a matter that should be unpicked within a fortnight; nor will it be satisfactorily resolved by having the argument on the front pages of our newspapers.
On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and others made clear that they thought the Lord Chancellor’s role in appointing the chief executive is unnecessary and meddles in the affairs of the Supreme Court. Then, the Government made crystal clear—I make it crystal clear again tonight—that we have been listening to the House and that we intend to undertake meaningful discussions with a view to addressing this as soon as possible. However, these discussions cannot be resolved overnight. I repeat again that these are important constitutional issues and there are practical issues about the implications of civil servants being appointed by members of the judiciary. Some noble Lords will urge that the time to deal with this issue is now. However, the current chief executive was appointed relatively recently and we are not aware of any plans to modify the current staffing structure of the court. There is simply no reason why this discussion should not proceed in a measured and considered way.
I hope the House will accept that this is the proper and reasonable course. The Government have demonstrated their willingness to listen, to debate amendments and to modify our position after due consideration, when a strong case is made in this House. For example, I anticipate that we will shortly debate the diversity duty, which is an amendment related to a suggestion made by the Constitution Committee in its
report back in March and which has been discussed in some detail at every stage of this Bill. By contrast, this amendment was first raised on Report. The Government said then that we would consider these issues and indeed we will, but with the best will in the world this takes longer than two weeks. These are important issues that deserve consideration and it would be remiss of the House to rush to a decision this evening.
For the avoidance of doubt, the Government have an open mind on this issue. We will be continuing discussions with the Supreme Court about the impact of this amendment, any concerns about its independence and how best that independence might be preserved. I hope, having raised this issue, that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, will be content to withdraw his amendment on the understanding that we will examine the issues it raises with the president of the Supreme Court and the Lords Constitution Committee. This is a night for judges to be judicious.