UK Parliament / Open data

Finance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 11 October 2017, in the House of Commons, led by Mel Stride.
Committee stage. Amendment 1 to clause 5, discussed with amendments 2 to 4 and clause stand part. Negatived on division (269 to 311). Amendment 2 negatived on division (272 to 312). Amendment 4 negatived on division (281 to 312). Clause 5 agreed to. Amendment 13 to clause 15, discussed with clause stand part and new clause 1 (Review of conditions under which business investment relief is available) and new clause 3 (Review of the efficacy of the conditions for business investment relief). Amendment withdrawn. Clause 15 agreed to. New clause 1 negatived on division (274 to 309). Clause 25, discussed with new clause 2 (Review of changes to chargeability of trading profits to corporation tax at Northern Ireland rate), debated and agreed to on question. New clause 2 negatived on division (231 to 308). Bill (clauses 5, 15 and 25) reported without amendment. Remainder of bill to be examined in Public Bill Committee.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
629 cc346-406 
Session
2017-19
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Finance Bill 2017-19
Wednesday, 6 September 2017
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Peter Dowd | 629 c348 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 1, page 12, leave out lines 8 to 12.

This amendment removes the pow...

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 629 c348 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 12, page 13, line 27, a...


Show all contributions (134)
Peter Dowd | 629 cc348-9 (Link to this contribution)

To be fired from a job is perhaps one of the most difficult experiences for an employee. There ar...

Lucy Frazer | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman rightly points out the devastating consequences for people who lose their jobs...

Peter Dowd | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)

This is not relevant to the debate, but a significant number of those jobs are incredibly low pai...

Mark Harper | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the concerns that those workers will be facing, but he know...

Peter Dowd | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)

The only people who are scaremongering are this Government who are threatening to tax people’s re...

Mel Stride | 629 c349 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that when a tribunal has granted an award on the grounds of discr...

Peter Dowd | 629 c350 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with that particular point.

We know the Government’s overall stated aim is to crack...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c350 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with everything my hon. Friend says, of course. Does he agree that a lump sum on terminat...

Peter Dowd | 629 cc350-1 (Link to this contribution)

Again, that goes to the heart of the issue. The Government are trying to focus on a particular mo...

Alex Burghart | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that clause 15 will bring more money into this country, which is ...

Peter Dowd | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

We will deal with that a little later. The hon. Gentleman may want to pay attention to my hon. Fr...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not the case that the Government are squeezing money out of people who cannot escape from t...

Peter Dowd | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend, as ever, puts it in a nutshell. That is the case.

Has the Minister read cla...

Rachel Maclean | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that under this Government we have made the largest strides to clo...

Peter Dowd | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

That will be dealt with later, but it is not the case for many multinationals. The papers are str...

Mel Stride | 629 c351 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for generously giving way. The latest figure for the tax gap is 6.5%, ...

Peter Dowd | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)

It does not include profit shifting from multinationals. I am quite happy to defend the record of...

Lucy Frazer | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in taking interventions. He suggests that the Conservat...

Peter Dowd | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)

When we take into account cuts to working tax credits and changes to benefits, that does not stac...

Rachel Maclean | 629 c352 (Link to this contribution)

Why is the hon. Gentleman discussing removing the power of unfair dismissal when that is neither ...

Peter Dowd | 629 cc352-3 (Link to this contribution)

Because it goes to the heart of this Government’s attitude—[Interruption.] Narrative; that is a v...

Mark Harper | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)

I will deal with the amendments and some of the issues introduced by the hon. Member for Bootle (...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman suggests that Governments effectively have no role in creating jobs. The...

Mark Harper | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)

I completely agree, but the hon. Gentleman misquotes me. I did not say that Government have no ro...

Catherine West | 629 c353 (Link to this contribution)

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain how, when he was Chief Whip, Thames Water failed to pay ta...

Mark Harper | 629 cc354-5 (Link to this contribution)

I have not got any idea. I was not Chief Whip between 2010 and 2014. Individual taxpayer matters ...

Charlie Elphicke | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is making an incredibly powerful argument. I was just considering his remark...

Mark Harper | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right. We hear a lot from the Opposition about clamping down on evasion and agg...

Catherine West | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)

The list definitely dates from 2010—if I am not mistaken, that was when the Tory Government came ...

Mark Harper | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)

There are a couple of things in what the hon. Lady says. She is absolutely right that we need to ...

Anneliese Dodds | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)

I have seen some of this from the inside, within the European Union. For example, I have seen mea...

Mark Harper | 629 c355 (Link to this contribution)

No. First, it cannot just be done at European Union level—[Interruption.] No, we have to do it gl...

Catherine West | 629 c356 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mark Harper | 629 c356 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot take an intervention when I am still dealing with the first one. The base erosion and pr...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 cc356-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is good to be back in the House after a bit of a recess and to be here again talking about the...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c357 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady may remember that the tax expert Richard Murphy calculated at one point that the ge...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c357 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree and I think that the tax gap is probably significantly larger than the Governm...

James Cleverly | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)

“The narrative”—those were the word used by the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman in response to t...

Rachel Maclean | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that a small business owner with just a couple of staff has to go throu...

James Cleverly | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will respond to her point in a few moments, but it is a ver...

James Cleverly | 629 c358 (Link to this contribution)

Above the £30,000 threshold, there are tax treatments. Through the Bill, the Government are seeki...

James Cleverly | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, but at the moment it is £30,000, and that is what it says here—[Interruption.]

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)

Order. There are too many sedentary interventions, and it makes it rather difficult for the Hansa...

James Cleverly | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to take interventions, but I have never been a particularly good lip reader, so the Op...

Peter Dowd | 629 c359 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in the light of the shake-up in these organisations and the dr...

James Cleverly | 629 cc359-360 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman will be unsurprised to hear that I do not agree with him. The Bill is where th...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)

I am guessing that the hon. Gentleman is unaware—perhaps he is not—that “injury to feelings” is a...

James Cleverly | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Lady for informing me of that. I am more than happy to look in more detail at th...

Kit Malthouse | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)

I am seeking to ensure my hon. Friend understands that this does not benefit the companies; this ...

James Cleverly | 629 c360 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. There is little direct financial benefit to the com...

James Cleverly | 629 cc360-1 (Link to this contribution)

Although, as I am reminded, there is an NI implication. Again, I have heard a number of anecdotes...

Ellie Reeves | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. Before entering this place, I was an e...

Charlie Elphicke | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is a making a strong and passionate case. My concern was industrial-scale tax avoid...

Ellie Reeves | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)

This is not about big corporates; I am talking about adequately compensating people who have been...

Catherine West | 629 c361 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is curious that, between 2010 and 2014, such a large company as...

Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree. The clause will penalise people who have lost their jobs and people who have ...

Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)

May I deal with the intervention I am currently dealing with first?

People who have lost th...

Rachel Maclean | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is talking about people who have lost their jobs who have been discriminated agains...

Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)

Discrimination is relevant to the debate, because the Bill would introduce legislation that would...

Ellie Reeves | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)

I have already given way several times; I wish to make some progress.

Consider the example ...

Rachel Maclean | 629 c362 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is being extremely generous in giving way. I just wish to put on the record that di...

Ellie Reeves | 629 cc362-3 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is talking about discrimination awards in employment tribunals; I am talking about ...

Neil O'Brien | 629 c363 (Link to this contribution)

The shadow Minister said that the measures in the Bill are part of a wider pattern of Government ...

Neil O'Brien | 629 c363 (Link to this contribution)

I shall make some progress.

Realistically, we cannot will the end of reducing tax avoidance...

Neil O'Brien | 629 cc363-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am just about to conclude.

The measures in clause 5 are good, and they are part of a wide...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c364 (Link to this contribution)

I will speak only very briefly in support of the Labour amendments as most of what I would say ha...

Catherine West | 629 c364 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a pity that, since the start of the new Government, Mr Pickl...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 cc364-5 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point.

The reality is that many Government Members have...

Rachel Maclean | 629 cc365-6 (Link to this contribution)

This is indeed an important Bill. I look forward to serving on the Bill Committee and to helping ...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c366 (Link to this contribution)

Just on that point about small businesses, I agree with the hon. Lady that they are immensely val...

Rachel Maclean | 629 c366 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am sure that members of the Treasury team are ...

Eddie Hughes | 629 cc366-7 (Link to this contribution)

I often think, when I get to my feet in the Chamber, that my job is not really to talk to the peo...

Peter Dowd | 629 c367 (Link to this contribution)

Was it not the hon. Gentleman’s party that voted against the minimum wage?

Eddie Hughes | 629 c367 (Link to this contribution)

I think I remember the hon. Gentleman saying, “Let’s not talk about the past. Let’s talk about wh...

Nusrat Ghani | 629 cc367-8 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker—sorry, I mean Dame Rosie. I have just been thrown by that magnific...

Colin Clark | 629 c368 (Link to this contribution)

The oil downturn has had an enormous effect in my constituency and in that of the hon. Member for...

Nusrat Ghani | 629 cc368-9 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is spot on. We want absolute clarity. As I continue with my speech, the Committee ...

Mel Stride | 629 c369 (Link to this contribution)

What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Rosie, and to respond to the first o...

Kelvin Hopkins | 629 c369 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves) made the point that the tax-...

Mel Stride | 629 cc369-371 (Link to this contribution)

This is one of the most generous thresholds in the world. In fact, there is no threshold at all i...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c371 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is concerned that some people might be exploiting a loophole, but as a result he has...

Mel Stride | 629 c372 (Link to this contribution)

The problem is that one cannot escape the possibility that the employer and the employee, who cou...

Peter Dowd | 629 c372 (Link to this contribution)

The Government seem to have taken a scattergun rather than forensic approach to this matter, affe...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c386 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 13, page 22, line 21, leave out

“on or after 6 April 2017”

an...

George Howarth | 629 cc386-7 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause stand part.

New clau...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c387 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate having the opportunity to speak in this second part of the debate on the Finance Bil...

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough | 629 c387 (Link to this contribution)

The amount of investment that has come to the UK from non-doms is £1.6 billion since 2012. I hope...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 cc387-8 (Link to this contribution)

Is that through business investment relief or from non-doms in general? We asked for those figure...

Vicky Ford | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand it, business investment relief ensures that overseas funds can be invested in the...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)

My complaint was about the fact that people are being allowed to not pay tax on stuff they are do...

Nusrat Ghani | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)

I am concerned that we must not put inaccuracies on record. The HMRC figures published in August ...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c388 (Link to this contribution)

I am very glad that those figures are there, but sadly, when we asked about them in September dur...

Anneliese Dodds | 629 cc389-390 (Link to this contribution)

I will get straight to the point. Members will not be surprised to hear that many of my concerns ...

Mark Harper | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady made a relevant point in the previous debate that I did not mention at the time. So...

Anneliese Dodds | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but it is not the case that Governments are completely unable to do anything unilater...

James Cartlidge | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Lady seriously suggesting that, under a Labour Government, HMRC would never negotiate...

Anneliese Dodds | 629 c390 (Link to this contribution)

I referred to secret sweetheart deals, of which the experience in this country has been negative....

Bambos Charalambous | 629 c391 (Link to this contribution)

One of the strange anomalies in our tax system over the years has been the framework constructed ...

Mel Stride | 629 c392 (Link to this contribution)

Clause 15 expands the scope of the business investment relief scheme because it supports economic...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c392 (Link to this contribution)

I would very much appreciate it if the Treasury would commit to publishing that information and d...

Mel Stride | 629 cc392-3 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, and I will come on to deal with the information that ...

Kirsty Blackman | 629 c393 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendment 13.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1...

George Howarth | 629 c399 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2—Review of changes to chargeability of tra...

Mel Stride | 629 cc399-400 (Link to this contribution)

As with my contributions earlier this afternoon, I will set out why the Government have included ...

Jonathan Edwards | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is making a powerful case as to why the devolution of corporation tax is a good thin...

Mel Stride | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but there is, of course, one key distinction bet...

Jonathan Edwards | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister makes a fair point about the land border, but large parts of Wales, including my par...

Mel Stride | 629 c400 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think it is within the scope of this particular clause to start getting too much into th...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister accept that the introduction of this will allow for the rebalancing of the Nort...

Mel Stride | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes the very powerful point that this is not about brass-plating and shifting pr...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister accept that those who espouse the peace process also want to see an economic di...

Mel Stride | 629 c401 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. This is about strengthening Northern Ireland’s economy, so...

Jonathan Reynolds | 629 cc401-2 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Financial Secretary for introducing this group. This is an important debate, not only...

Gregory Campbell | 629 c402 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman spoke a few moments ago about the importance of competitiveness throughout Eur...

Jonathan Reynolds | 629 c403 (Link to this contribution)

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I would not agree with his characterisation of the situati...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 629 c403 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman recognises that the one sector in which the proposals might be abused, the fin...

Jonathan Reynolds | 629 c403 (Link to this contribution)

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that only the financial services sector will s...

Jonathan Edwards | 629 c404 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that one of the biggest economic challenges that we face...

Jonathan Reynolds | 629 c404 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is not correct in that assessment. I certainly agree with him that regional di...

Sammy Wilson | 629 cc404-5 (Link to this contribution)

First, I welcome the proposal in the Finance Bill, which adds to the previous decision about devo...

Emma Little Pengelly | 629 c405 (Link to this contribution)

I want to raise one additional point. My hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) ha...

Martyn Day | 629 c406 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to present a petition relating to consumer rights. The petition stems from a problem that ...

Lindsay Hoyle | 629 c406 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly. I am struggling to hear what the hon. Gentlema...

Martyn Day | 629 cc406-411 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

As I was saying, the petition arises from a problem experienc...

Nicholas Dakin | 629 c411 (Link to this contribution)

I want to praise the work that the Bangladesh Welfare Association in North Lincolnshire does in t...

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