UK Parliament / Open data

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 18 April 2017, in the House of Commons, led by Jane Ellison. The answering members were Jonathan Reynolds and Peter Dowd.
Second reading. Amendment motion to decline second reading proposed. Negatived on division (54 to 314). Original motion agreed to on division (313 to 236).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
624 cc569-637 
Session
2016-17
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Second reading
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Finance (No. 2) Bill 2016-17
Tuesday, 14 March 2017
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Natascha Engel | 624 c570 (Link to this contribution)

The amendment has been selected.

5.10 pm

Jane Ellison | 624 c570 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

This Government have long demonstra...


Show all contributions (157)
Jonathan Edwards | 624 c570 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Financial Secretary give way?

Jane Ellison | 624 c570 (Link to this contribution)

I will make a little more progress and then I will happily give way.

Before setting out the...

Jane Ellison | 624 c570 (Link to this contribution)

Members should be paying more attention. Earlier today the Leader of the House updated right hon....

Jane Ellison | 624 cc570-1 (Link to this contribution)

It is good to hear that Opposition Front Benchers are here to help.

To return to the matter...

Jonathan Edwards | 624 c571 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Financial Secretary confirm that the Office for Budget Responsibility report that accomp...

Jane Ellison | 624 c571 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in the House earlier, but the International Monetary...

George Kerevan | 624 c571 (Link to this contribution)

In the interests of this potentially more consensual period in the run-up to Prorogation, as we t...

Jane Ellison | 624 c571 (Link to this contribution)

The Chancellor was clear at the time and in our statements about the Budget and subsequent decisi...

Jane Ellison | 624 c571 (Link to this contribution)

Well, there are measures in the Bill that are immediately and openly about revenue raising, and w...

Kirsty Blackman | 624 c572 (Link to this contribution)

Recent studies have shown that the youngest people in our society who are working, those aged 22 ...

Jane Ellison | 624 c572 (Link to this contribution)

I have just talked about some of the things we are doing. Some of these long-term trends need to ...

Joanna Cherry | 624 c572 (Link to this contribution)

Cancer Research UK ambassadors like my constituent Sue Spencer have helped to highlight the fact ...

Jane Ellison | 624 cc573-4 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. and learned Lady tempts me to talk about a subject from a previous portfolio that is ver...

Sammy Wilson | 624 c574 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister not accept that all the studies conducted so far indicate that this will presen...

Jane Ellison | 624 c574 (Link to this contribution)

On the latter point, I looked at this matter in detail recently. On what would be required of peo...

Nigel Mills | 624 c574 (Link to this contribution)

I fully accept the need to tackle the tax gap, but if the advantages for the very smallest busine...

Jane Ellison | 624 cc574-7 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has already announced that businesses with a turnover below t...

Peter Dowd | 624 cc577-8 (Link to this contribution)

Plausibility ran through every sentence in the Minister’s speech. Plausibility ran riot, but plau...

Tom Tugendhat | 624 c578 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting points, but I hope he will forgive me for saying th...

Peter Dowd | 624 c579 (Link to this contribution)

If that is what the hon. Gentleman sees, I suggest that he needs to take off his rose-tinted spec...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c579 (Link to this contribution)

I would love this to be a low-tax economy, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that tax as a percenta...

Peter Dowd | 624 c579 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing that to my attention. Let me put it like this: i...

Tom Tugendhat | 624 c580 (Link to this contribution)

It is very kind of the hon. Gentleman to give way again. As he has brought up the NHS, I feel tha...

Peter Dowd | 624 c580 (Link to this contribution)

I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to waiting lists in England, where an estimated 3.8 million...

Steve McCabe | 624 c580 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend think it is remotely credible for a Tory MP on the eve of a general election ...

Peter Dowd | 624 c580 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is completely right about that. If Conservative Members want to send me their mani...

Sammy Wilson | 624 c580 (Link to this contribution)

I accept what the hon. Gentleman has said about the difficulties that the NHS is facing. However,...

Peter Dowd | 624 cc580-1 (Link to this contribution)

I referred earlier to the money—£70 billion, I believe—that the Government have given away to cor...

Victoria Atkins | 624 c581 (Link to this contribution)

In that spirit, does the hon. Gentleman welcome the additional £20 million to £25 million a year ...

Peter Dowd | 624 c581 (Link to this contribution)

Of course I welcome that figure, but the hon. Lady has to ask herself whether businesses should h...

Sammy Wilson | 624 c581 (Link to this contribution)

Given that larger stores weathered the recession much better than many small businesses, would th...

Peter Dowd | 624 cc581-2 (Link to this contribution)

If that suggestion came from the Government side, I would say that I would listen to the represen...

Jane Ellison | 624 c582 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but I rise to defend HMRC. What the shadow Minister just said is the most outrageous ...

Peter Dowd | 624 c582 (Link to this contribution)

That attempt at plausibility has gone amiss yet again. The reality is that we are constantly cont...

Lucy Frazer | 624 c582 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the Bill comes from a Government who have significantly incre...

Peter Dowd | 624 c582 (Link to this contribution)

A million people in employment are on zero-hours contracts. Millions of people are in insecure wo...

Tom Tugendhat | 624 c583 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. Does he understand that his pledge further to...

Peter Dowd | 624 c583 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know which speech the hon. Gentleman has been listening to, but I did not refer to raisi...

Peter Dowd | 624 c583 (Link to this contribution)

No, I did not. I was asked earlier how I would pay for the changes, and I indicated that I would ...

Lucy Frazer | 624 c583 (Link to this contribution)

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how much Labour would borrow under his plan?

Peter Dowd | 624 c583 (Link to this contribution)

Certainly less than you. In short, this Bill is another Conservative broken promise, and I urge t...

Nigel Mills | 624 cc583-5 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to speak on this nice, brief and moderate Bill. I suspect the Bill that finally ...

Michael Tomlinson | 624 c585 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a cogent argument, but does he not welcome the targeted nature of the fu...

Nigel Mills | 624 c585 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome more funding to help children to be healthy and more funding for sports. I especially w...

Jane Ellison | 624 c585 (Link to this contribution)

Just to clarify, one reason why the levy is on producers is because we want to drive the reformul...

Nigel Mills | 624 c586 (Link to this contribution)

I agree that changing what people consume without their knowing it, and without their having to c...

Kirsty Blackman | 624 c586 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate the point the hon. Gentleman is making and I have a lot of sympathy with his wider p...

Nigel Mills | 624 c586 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Lady about that. The products we should probably be targeting are those peo...

Lucy Frazer | 624 c586 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend accept that the provisions will give rise to a public debate, and therefore t...

Nigel Mills | 624 cc586-7 (Link to this contribution)

Having a broader debate to raise people’s understanding that a diet cola is much healthier that a...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c587 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is slightly glossing over the problems for businesses. Many of them will be paying...

Nigel Mills | 624 c587 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, and I was coming to that point about the smaller businesses. I suspect that businesses that ...

Sammy Wilson | 624 c588 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that this may be meant to do away with errors and give busine...

Nigel Mills | 624 cc588-9 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we have to think about how to do the annual adjustments—they...

Suella Braverman | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the cut in corporation tax from 19% to 17% in 2020 is only going t...

Nigel Mills | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree: it is important that we continue to send the signal that Britain is a great p...

George Kerevan | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

Can the hon. Gentleman explain why Germany, which has a much higher headline rate of corporation ...

Nigel Mills | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

I think I would have had to have attended several of the hon. Gentleman’s lectures to understand ...

Kevin Foster | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

In his consideration, will my hon. Friend, like me, bear in mind the fact that the closest and mo...

Nigel Mills | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, and Ireland has found that that corporation tax rate has been successful in helping to attra...

Alan Mak | 624 c589 (Link to this contribution)

I hope my hon. Friend will join me in sharing the sentiments of our hon. Friend the Member for Fa...

Nigel Mills | 624 c590 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with those sentiments. If we are going to get into a debate about the German economic mod...

Sammy Wilson | 624 c590 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there will be great disappointment in Northern Ireland that b...

Nigel Mills | 624 cc590-1 (Link to this contribution)

I do agree: it is regrettable that the inability to form an Executive means that it looks like a ...

Sammy Wilson | 624 c591 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman quite rightly mentions tax avoidance. Does he accept that although there are m...

Nigel Mills | 624 cc591-2 (Link to this contribution)

I was nearly finished, but the hon. Gentleman invites me into a debate on the tax gap. I do not h...

Alan Mak | 624 c592 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a very good speech about the changing nature of the economy, particularl...

Nigel Mills | 624 c592 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I happily welcome that review. That has become an emerging issue that we need to tackle. It ...

Stewart Hosie | 624 cc592-3 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “That” to the end of the Question and add:

“t...

Rebecca Pow | 624 c593 (Link to this contribution)

I just want to point out that, under the Scotland Act 2016, we are devolving benefits worth £2.8 ...

Stewart Hosie | 624 cc593-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure that the Scottish people will be delighted to hear that the hon. Lady thinks that someh...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c594 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman quotes the OBR, which was one of the few forecasters that was responsible enou...

Stewart Hosie | 624 c595 (Link to this contribution)

I think the hon. Gentleman has been on record attacking the OBR for its forecasts. If he has not,...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c595 (Link to this contribution)

The point I was trying to make was that we have had incredibly wrong forecasts from all these ill...

Stewart Hosie | 624 cc595-6 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want foolish speculation; nor do I want rose-tinted spectacles or ostrich heads in sand....

James Davies | 624 cc596-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to be called to speak in support of this Finance Bill. As a whole, it is a Bill ...

Alison Thewliss | 624 c597 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman supports the sugar tax. Does he agree, though, that the...

James Davies | 624 c597 (Link to this contribution)

It is true that the Health Committee—myself included—has called for additional measures, but the ...

Kevin Foster | 624 c597 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an important point about the fact that there is a higher growth in obesi...

James Davies | 624 cc597-8 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. I strongly believe that the measures outlined in the Bill go some way to tackling that si...

Rishi Sunak | 624 c598 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about the freedom for better labelling after we leave the...

James Davies | 624 cc598-9 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very good point. A point has also been made about the flexibility to include informatio...

Alan Mak | 624 c599 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech based on his personal knowledge and work as a medica...

James Davies | 624 cc599-600 (Link to this contribution)

I will indeed. I will come on to the positive impact that the potential introduction of the levy ...

Matt Warman | 624 c600 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that this is an example of measuring success in terms not of the revenu...

James Davies | 624 c600 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a good point. This is about how people live their lives in the foods and dri...

Caroline Johnson | 624 c600 (Link to this contribution)

As a consultant paediatrician I have seen and treated a number of children with obesity and seen ...

James Davies | 624 cc600-1 (Link to this contribution)

Yes. The levy is a bold and brave move, but it is only a small part of the efforts we need to mak...

Steve McCabe | 624 c601 (Link to this contribution)

I want to follow the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) in addressing my remarks to part 3...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c601 (Link to this contribution)

That is because Labour always inherits a wonderful financial situation from the Conservatives and...

Steve McCabe | 624 c601 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, of course that is the hon. Gentleman’s belief. However, if we go back in history, I seem to ...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 624 c601 (Link to this contribution)

I am inordinately fond of the hon. Gentleman, but we have heard this—“24 hours to save the NHS”—s...

Steve McCabe | 624 c602 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman may be reading from one of those notes that the Whips have been passing around...

Jane Ellison | 624 c602 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to comment on a couple of things. First, the provision is designed slightly differentl...

Steve McCabe | 624 cc602-3 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister. Obviously, we cannot cite Mexico as evidence in favour of the poli...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c603 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) and to ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c603 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to another hon. Gentleman for whom it is fine to eat lots of sugar.

George Kerevan | 624 c604 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, I had a fine East Lothian Easter egg. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the difficulty ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 cc604-6 (Link to this contribution)

There is indeed an advertising industry, but we live in a free country and people ought to be abl...

Jane Ellison | 624 c606 (Link to this contribution)

I want to give my hon. Friend a degree of reassurance. A new measure in the regime advanced as pa...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 cc606-7 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. That is an important part of the reforms, but there has perhaps been a tone—more from...

Peter Dowd | 624 c607 (Link to this contribution)

May we just have clarity on this? I did not say that. The hon. Gentleman brought it to my attenti...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c607 (Link to this contribution)

I look forward to reading the characteristically accurate transcript Hansard will have for us tom...

Paul Monaghan | 624 c607 (Link to this contribution)

In that context, how does the hon. Gentleman explain a national debt of close to £2 trillion?

...
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

I would explain the national debt of approaching £2 trillion because of the place where we starte...

Jonathan Reynolds | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

I am loth to give the hon. Gentleman further exposure, but if that strategy was as successful as ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

It has succeeded. We have the fastest growing economy in the G7. For all the stuff we heard a yea...

Jonathan Reynolds | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

I may be falling into my own trap, but I remember listening to the hon. Gentleman’s speeches in t...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

I do apologise for a lack of humility. I shall try to do better in that regard. I am, however, fl...

Rebecca Pow | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

Is not one of the fundamental reasons why the economy is in safe hands with those of us on the Co...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c608 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend comes from Somerset and her parents are constituents of mine. For both those reaso...

Peter Dowd | 624 c609 (Link to this contribution)

If the long-term economic plan was such a wonderful strategy, why did the former Chancellor and t...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c609 (Link to this contribution)

Targets are based on forecasts and forecasts have variables within them that even the wonderful, ...

George Kerevan | 624 c609 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot let the hon. Gentleman continue with his analysis of the previous Chancellor’s single pl...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c609 (Link to this contribution)

I do not agree with that analysis. My analysis is that the austerity allowed for a looser monetar...

George Kerevan | 624 cc609-610 (Link to this contribution)

I shall support the amendment, although that does not prevent me from believing that there are ma...

Anne Main | 624 c610 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is presenting a marvellous argument for people to vote Conservative. He is pre...

George Kerevan | 624 cc610-1 (Link to this contribution)

I was very careful to say that I was not anticipating who would actually be in government. I was ...

Jane Ellison | 624 c611 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech and I welcome the consensual tone that he has ...

George Kerevan | 624 cc612-3 (Link to this contribution)

I accept what the Minister says, but the extra investment from the productivity fund that is goin...

Kevin Foster | 624 c613 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening with interest to some of the hon. Gentleman’s points. Does he agree that one of th...

George Kerevan | 624 cc613-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to agree with that point. The weakness of the euro is that across Europe it has locked...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 624 c614 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that the difficulty with doing this through charges is t...

George Kerevan | 624 cc614-5 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more, and I look forward to the hon. Gentleman taking that up in the 1922 commi...

Kit Malthouse | 624 cc615-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is a joy to follow my Treasury Committee colleague, the hon. Member for East Lothian (George K...

Steve Baker | 624 c617 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend’s speech is an absolute treat because it is a much better version of the speech th...

Kit Malthouse | 624 cc617-9 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. This is a chicken and egg situation. If people with ideas ...

Kirsty Blackman | 624 cc619-620 (Link to this contribution)

I want to talk about quite a few things. I might have given a somewhat different speech had there...

Victoria Atkins | 624 c621 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Lady accept, in the spirit of this part of her speech, that the introduction of the...

Kirsty Blackman | 624 cc621-5 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree that things such as the national living wage—it is not a living wage, however;...

Victoria Atkins | 624 cc624-6 (Link to this contribution)

So much has already been said in this debate that I am going to attempt to be short and, I hope, ...

Victoria Atkins | 624 c626 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. I hesitate to rely on my A-level economics, but companies employ people who pay taxes, an...

Victoria Atkins | 624 cc626-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me.

One of the most important things a...

Suella Braverman | 624 c627 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to speak in support of this Finance Bill on a day when the general election has been...

Anne Main | 624 c627 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Of course it is the Conservative party that has inc...

Suella Braverman | 624 c628 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more. That is the point that I want to make. It is a principle of basic economi...

George Kerevan | 624 c628 (Link to this contribution)

Does this Bill not raise taxes on insurance, and on this, that and the other thing? Is the hon. L...

Suella Braverman | 624 c628 (Link to this contribution)

I completely agree. I am not saying no tax rises at all. I am saying that tax rises have to be pr...

George Kerevan | 624 c628 (Link to this contribution)

They are paying for the health service.

Suella Braverman | 624 c628 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, but let us see what history has shown. When Gordon Brown increased the higher rate of tax, t...

Rishi Sunak | 624 cc628-630 (Link to this contribution)

From the discovery of Australia to the invention of the cat’s eye, the history of Yorkshire’s peo...

Rebecca Pow | 624 c629 (Link to this contribution)

There is much to welcome in this Finance Bill and I am very pleased to be taking part in this fas...

Rebecca Pow | 624 cc629-631 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. Where are they, to speak up for themselves?

Having made a strong case with my Conse...

Jonathan Reynolds | 624 cc631-4 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to close today’s debate on the Finance (No. 2) Bill, even if other events have p...

Jane Ellison | 624 cc634-6 (Link to this contribution)

With the leave of the House, I will close today’s debate, and it is a pleasure to do so. It has b...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 624 c636 (Link to this contribution)

Order. It is a little impolite to make so much noise that the House cannot hear the Minister. Whi...

Jane Ellison | 624 c637 (Link to this contribution)

What could be more exciting and important to talk about? I wonder.

I reiterate that the Gov...

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