UK Parliament / Open data

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

I want to say a few words about the amendments tabled in my name. The tone of the debate has been useful and thoughtful and I have agreed with much of what others on both sides of the House have said. We are all trying to grasp our way towards something that provides robust security while guaranteeing human rights. My worry about the Government’s proposals on temporary exclusion orders is that they get that balance slightly wrong. There is a significant risk that, for many of the reasons that were outlined by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), they will, rather perversely, be counter-productive. I therefore think that the alternative system of notification and managed return orders has a lot to commend it, although the comments of the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) caused me to think again about how it would work in practice. There is a lot to explore here.

9 pm

I come at this issue not just as a representative of a party that has often spoken out about the way in which successive Governments have used the threat of terrorism to justify the undermining of hard-won civil liberties and human rights, but as the MP for a city that was once home to two brothers who have just lost their lives fighting in Syria. Jaffar Deghayes, who was aged 17, and his brother Abdullah, who was aged 18, died in separate incidents earlier this year after leaving the UK in the belief that taking up arms against the murderous Assad regime was the right thing to do. They might have been typical of the kind of young idealists to whom the Bill will apply, had they not been killed, but instead tried to return home.

Their father, Abubaker Deghayes, still lives in Brighton and I would like to share his response to the proposals we are debating:

“The strategy you are using with our sons does not work. You are criminalising them just out of the fear they might become a threat to this country. Do not push them to be radicalised, used by groups like Isis who are out for revenge and thirst for blood.”

His advice bears listening to. Not only does his bitter personal experience give him insight into how we might better respond to the growing number of British citizens leaving home to fight abroad, but his position is, in many ways, backed up by evidence.

If the primary purpose of counter-terrorism policy is to make us safer, which clearly it is, it might well be counter-productive to condemn individuals to being exiled from their families and friends. Evidence from countries such as Sweden and Denmark clearly indicates that families and friends can play an essential role in challenging and ultimately overturning extremists’ beliefs. I know that that is not the subject of what we are discussing, but I look forward to the opportunity to discuss the whole issue of de-radicalisation tomorrow. I will say no more about it now because the Chair, Mr Crausby, would stop me, but this issue is related to the amendments on alternative de-radicalisation programmes that have been tabled for debate tomorrow.

If return is denied to those who, for practical or other reasons, have been unable to apply for the permit that removes the temporary exclusion order, we will run into problems. I was not convinced by the Home Secretary’s response to my saying that people may well not be in a position to access legal advice or may not have sufficient funds to jump through all the hoops that the TEO requires them to jump through, particularly if they are in a failed or failing state. Such people will effectively be denied the right to return.

The Home Secretary’s plans assume that the people in question will know that they are subject to a TEO. That cannot be guaranteed, given that many of those who are targeted will be in countries that are suffering from internal armed conflict. They will not just be sitting behind a letter box—it is much more complicated than that.

If somebody does have the means to apply for a permit to allow them to return, they will have to attend an interview. Failure to do so, either because they are unable to do so or are prevented from doing so, could result in their being refused the right to return.

Type
Proceeding contribution
Reference
589 cc1220-1 
Session
2014-15
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
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