Recall of MPs Bill

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the threat of recall would have an effect on MPs? In the Unite...

The hon. Gentleman makes valid points.

I want to turn to the mechanism I am suggesting.

My hon. Friend just said that the threshold of 3,500 voters or 5% was low, and used the example o...

The hon. Gentleman might take a different view, but my personal view is that the general election...

rose—

I will give way once more, then I will get to what I want to propose.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the constant threat of recall, particularly for those in marg...

I do think that is a recipe for “populism”—in the worst sense of the word—and that it is open to ...

The right hon. Gentleman describes the offence as a catch-all, but the advice that I have had—I h...

Yes, I think I am, for two reasons. First, I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman has just said,...

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. He will of course know tha...

indicated dissent.

Oh, so it extends throughout the whole of the United Kingdom? It would be helpful if the hon. Gen...

I will, but if I may, I will come back to that, because it is one of the major difficulties in th...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

This will be the last time. I am trying to get to the content of my amendments and I have not yet...

This is meant to be helpful. In the several cases of misconduct in public office that I have had ...

It is difficult, and as the right hon. Gentleman probably knows, the common law offence of miscon...

It seems to me that there is another problem. The Crown Prosecution Service says clearly in its g...

That is another precise difficulty in the drafting that I foresaw. If the hon. Gentleman looked a...

I commend the hon. Gentleman for the struggle he has entered into. Let me provide him with this p...

That is the other major drafting difficulty. I do not believe it would be right for me to put som...

Order.

Thank you, Mr Amess.

I am proposing that 100 constituents—I deliberately kept the number lo...

Before he concludes, I would like the hon. Gentleman to address two issues that can be seen in th...

The first point is explicitly covered in new clause 7(6), which states:

“If the court consi...

Would the decision of the election court be challengeable? In other words, if someone were found ...

My new clause is constructed in such a way that there would not be an appeal process because the ...

One of my points was half-addressed earlier when the hon. Gentleman suggested that one of his arg...

If a Member of Parliament is elected and fails to carry out even the basic duties of a Member of ...

I intervene merely to seek more information. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the scale...

So many Members have now referred to me as a member of the Privy Council that I think I must have...

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess.

I support recall, as outlined ...

Let me put the record straight. That is not what I said at all. I have never described the hurdle...

Let me tell the hon. Gentleman what he said a moment ago. I did take notes. He said that it would...

I do not remember Lena Jeger, but I think I am right in saying that in each of her successive ele...

I will come on to that in a minute, because we have to look at the process of what is before us. ...

My hon. Friend will know that I was formerly the MP for the marginal seat of Croydon Central and ...

My hon. Friend makes a very good point.

I just wonder whether we might bear in mind Sidney Silverman and David Steel, who both courageous...

I have no doubt that what my hon. Friend says is correct, but I will explain in a minute why they...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

No, as I want to make some progress first. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Richmond Park says...

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but the frustration many of us in the Ch...

I am not going to answer that point now, but I will answer it in a minute, and the hon. Lady is w...

Of the people who vote.

Exactly; it is the people who vote, but I will come on to that in a moment.

The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) said earlier that the threshold would be so hig...

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Like a lot of other things the hon. Gentleman says, he has not...

The question of what these limits are is important. What does recall mean to a person of limited ...

Exactly, and I made that point last week. If I had the £250 million or £300 million the hon. Memb...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I am going to answer the hon. Lady’s point if she is patient.

On the hon. Lady’s point abou...

Is my hon. Friend aware that I received an e-mail a few days ago from the British equivalent of t...

That does not surprise me.

The hon. Member for Richmond Park has not even thought about fin...

My hon. Friend began by saying that he supports recall as set out in the Government’s Bill. Howev...

I must say that I do have problems with that system, but I also know that under it, at least we a...

Has my hon. Friend read the Government’s impact assessment, which says that, even under their pro...

That is the flaw in the argument, and it is clear that the proposer of the amendment has not even...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

In a minute. Most Members of Parliament do their best for their constituencies. The situation now...

My hon. Friend said that in his view, there is no such thing as a Westminster establishment. Does...

I agree. I would not consider myself to be in the same class as the hon. Member for Richmond Park...

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and the whole House will appreciate...

The hon. Gentleman is talking complete nonsense. The idea that the Bill is an extension of democr...

My hon. Friend may be interested to know that in my patch, Swansea, there was a bid by a big fina...

rose—

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Not yet. There is a convention in this House that we have to answer an intervention before allowi...

If the hon. Gentleman turned up a bit more, he would know that.

My hon. Friend makes a good point from a sedentary position.

There are occasions—I gave the...

A rich man’s charter.

As my hon. Friend says, it is a rich man’s charter to pick off anyone who has views at odds with ...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He said earlier that the Colorado state legislators we...

The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot argue for his proposal and then say, follo...

And how they behave.

I do not think that money should determine that or, as my hon. Friend says, how Members behave. P...

My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) says that he is proposing strong fina...

I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman raises that point because in the United States, to get ro...

My hon. Friend is being most generous by giving way again as I know that he wants to get towards ...

We all know that organisations get around election limits—we need only to look at the last electi...

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and ...

I am grateful to the Minister for how he is presenting his argument as, ironically enough, debate...

The hon. Gentleman expresses his reasonable and important point well. As I said on Second Reading...

Would the Minister like to go a little further and indicate whether he is prepared to have genuin...

Well, I think that we are having them now in Committee; the parties are approaching a serious sub...

My right hon. Friend is handling this in his characteristically rational way, but he made one com...

I learnt to take a rational approach during my many happy years working with my right hon. Friend...

We have heard the word “vexatious” used a lot in this debate, but people with strongly held views...

The right hon. Gentleman—everyone who has contributed today seems to be right hon. The hon. Gentl...

The Minister said on Second Reading that he thought that the Bill needed to be improved and that ...

I do, and if my right hon. Friend—I know him to be right hon.—is patient, I will make those sugge...

Whereas my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) included in clause 9 of his R...

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. He points to some other flaws in the amendment, which i...

In relation to the possibility of the Government looking at a third trigger relating to misconduc...

We will attend to the points that the hon. Lady makes. They apply perhaps with even more force to...

May I take the Minister to task about his comments on new clause 2, which stands in my name? He s...

My hon. Friend takes me to task in a very gentle way. It may be true that election leaflets may c...

But the Post Office delivers our election addresses to every single household, and that gives the...

My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point. She will remember that I applauded the intention of her ...

Will the Minister give way?

Once more, and then I will make some progress.

Is the Minister’s understanding of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Za...

I do not know whether departure from an election manifesto would constitute a reason for recall u...

Will the Minister give way?

No. I want to make a bit of progress, if I may.

The amendment would ensure that the stateme...

For the sake of clarity, if the amendment were to be passed, would, for example, the 10-day suspe...

No, because suspensions are not cumulative, and that would be below the trigger level.

It i...

This goes straight to the point that I raised with my right hon. Friend about the hon. Member for...

My right hon. Friend makes the same point as I am making to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and W...

Will the Minister give the Government’s view on my amendment? If the amendment tabled by my hon. ...

I always look kindly on any proposals by my hon. Friend. I intend to finish with his amendment, s...

Unfortunately, my new clause 4 was outside the scope of this Bill, but it would have empowered th...

I cannot answer that question. The scope of the Bill is set. We had not at that time had such a r...

The Minister has mentioned the European Parliament. Does he not think it is ironic that MEPs can ...

I repeat what I said on Second Reading: I think there is a strong case to extend these provisions...

I have in my hand “Profiles in Courage”, a book John F. Kennedy wrote 50 years ago when he was in...

Before Chris Mullin became a Member of Parliament, he campaigned with great courage for the relea...

The point about Chris Mullin is well made. Different people with different temperaments in differ...

Surely the defence against the scenario that the hon. Gentleman presents is the fact that the thr...

Yes, but my understanding is that 5% would be needed to start the process.

My issue is with...

Tempting as it is to get 11,000 people to turn up tomorrow in the constituency of the hon. Member...

That is completely right. Even if it was not possible in many cases to muster such forces, it wou...

My hon. Friend mentioned representing somebody who had not been found guilty of anything. I do no...

Precisely. If one’s defence is, “I’m not a murderer,” all that people hear is the word “murderer”...

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) is not present, but I am sure that she will not min...

I am grateful for that example. It is difficult to imagine how much harassment there would be if ...

Passing a recall Bill is one of the most important things that we can do to restore trust between...

I am sorry, but having read the hon. Lady’s new clause, I do not think it would do anything of th...

The hon. Gentleman has not heard my comments on the second part of the new clause. I was talking ...

rose—

No, I will not give way. Although I understand the concern, I do not think that that will be an i...

The hon. Lady has not answered my point at all. Like the other supporters of the amendments of th...

At the end of the day, it depends upon trust and the view that we take of the electorate. I trust...

More than 50% of the electorate voted against most Members of the House, including myself and the...

Anything is possible. We live in the real world of good and bad, but if we make decisions about i...

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for allowing me to intervene. May I draw her attention to a p...

Clearly, I have no knowledge of Northern Ireland and exactly how it operates, but the hon. Lady m...

The hon. Lady is generous in giving way and I have two quick points. At the moment, a voter may c...

On the first point, the rules will be exactly the same as in a general election, so I do not see ...

The hon. Lady keeps saying that the Government’s proposals—which I think could be improved—do not...

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, but I suppose that I simply do not think the grounds are w...

I am not entirely unsympathetic to the thrust of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Ric...

Order. Interventions must be a lot shorter than that, and not replaced by speeches.

Gosh, that was quite a long intervention and I am not sure I remember it exactly. May I indulge t...

Under the hon. Lady’s proposals, there could be an unsuccessful application for recall, but the w...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his indulgence; that was a much shorter and better comment. We dis...

Surely the stop for the process continuing over and over again is the fact of previous failure. A...

The hon. Gentleman is right and that is the way it should work. However, the mechanism that my ho...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Not again. Because I think that—

Will the hon. Lady give way?

No, I will not: read my lips.

You have been incredibly indulgent, Mr Hood, and I know that ...

I am grateful to the Minister for his response on the calculation of days. To be absolutely clear...

indicated assent.

If there is to be an additional number of days, those cannot be carried over from one Session or ...

I welcome campaigns in my constituency and a vibrant and active democracy. The question is whethe...

I do not believe that people petitioning or lobbying, or even media campaigns, are intimidation.<...

I am talking about recall.

Well, the right to recall time and again is the exercise of the democratic will of the local peop...

I thank my Friend for giving way on that point. I support the amendment we will vote on later. Cl...

We will draft amendments for the next stage of the Bill. I had not even thought of amending it to...

I completely agree that the referendum in Scotland was a great expression of the democratic proce...

There may well be another referendum in due course. We might have to listen to the electorate on ...

I hear what my hon. Friend says, but he should look at what has happened in the United States. Bi...

I say again that my hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point on the influence of big money in r...

I accept much of what the hon. Gentleman says. However, does he agree that MPs from the larger pa...

That is a valid point about equivalence of arms, and the Front Benches should examine further the...

I speak to the amendments as someone who is accustomed to being in the eye of a political storm. ...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I am not going to give way at all.

Anyone would think that every one of my constituents loa...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

No. The hon. Gentleman has taken up enough time with interventions tonight.

My constituents...

Stand as an independent then.

Order. The hon. Gentleman has had a lot to say tonight in interventions, and he should stay in or...

My constituents know exactly what type of MP I am. There has been an elephant sat inside—not outs...

I shall be brief. Let me make it quite clear that I certainly have respect for the electorate. Ha...

On the fear of recurrent recalls, does the hon. Gentleman agree that an amendment should be table...

It might or it might not.

In future reform campaigns, we will need the courage of MPs to do...

I accept the point about tiny majorities, of course, but the question is whether we adopt the pro...

Yes, it might be. As I said at the start, there is bound to be a recall mechanism that the House ...

It seems to me that one of the big issues with trust in politicians concerns money. Does my hon. ...

I am sure my hon. Friend is right. At the end of it, I hope we will all reach a consensus of a ki...

The hon. Gentleman mentioned tit for tat, but does not game theory suggest that if someone knew t...

It might do, and that scenario might not arise in the first place. I am just saying that there is...

I rise to speak to amendment 41, standing in my name, which would add the words:

“No action...

What I think the hon. Gentleman has been describing over a period of centuries has been the evolu...

I know that that is what my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park argues and I know that the n...

Oh, come on!

If the hon. Gentleman wants to insult the sovereign, I personally am perfectly happy with that. I...

rose—

The hon. Gentleman has already intervened once.

rose—

All right, I will give way, just to please the hon. Gentleman.

I am listening to what is quite an egalitarian speech. I am a monarchist myself, but I do not lik...

The myth that is being propagated by some Members—not least by the new hon. Member for Clacton, w...

rose—

As I have taken the hon. Gentleman to task so strongly, I think it only fair that he should have ...

I shall not seek to persuade my hon. Friend on the fundamental issue of principle that he is disc...

Order. That intervention was too long.

I apologise, Mr Hood.

To be honest, I do not really understand that intervention. I have mentioned the hon. Member for ...

The early examples of people being thrown out were not necessarily because they offended the Exec...

Yes, that is a very fair point. In those days some Members were thrown out because they held opin...

I appreciate the historical information we have got in this debate, which will certainly mean we ...

It was dealt with in-house. He was a great man. He argued his case. He came here four times and f...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

One last time and then I must sit down to let others in.

It is a pleasure to hear the hon. Gentleman praise Charles Bradlaugh, a notable atheist, but he h...

The Minister dealt precisely with that point, and I am quite prepared to engage in discussions wi...

When my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) said that I can speak for myse...

My right hon. Friend talks about Members who, like me, represent marginal seats. We must be caref...

I note what my hon. Friend says, but I would not be prepared to say that, if I had a majority in ...

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak at the end of the debate, presumably before my ho...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, because not giving way is the maxim by which I li...

I have absolutely no idea. The Prime Minister is trying to run a coalition. He has to keep within...

I put it to my hon. Friend that there is a gap in the regulation, which the Bill is intended to f...

Do we have an actual problem or a perception of a problem that does not actually exist? In practi...

The hon. Gentleman has raised a number of points, but his speech is dominated by the idea that th...

I say in all candour that we need to pay attention to how we are going to stand up for Parliament...

Not at all—we’ve just trebled our membership!

I enjoyed the hon. Gentleman’s intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne M...

I feel that my hon. Friend is creating an Aunt Sally that does not exist. As I understand it, the...

That was the superficial attraction of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ric...

Does my hon. Friend not agree that more or less every 30 or so years since the first Reform Act o...

We have a practical problem about how we adapt as an institution—both the Government, and Parliam...

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) spoke to set out our ca...

This has been a good, if long, debate, and after four and a half hours of Committee we are still ...

Will the Minister clarify whether a threshold could be dovetailed on to another election—for exam...

I think the answer is that a threshold could be on any date.

My hon. Friend the Member for ...

Order. The Minister will be heard.

It would be very difficult for certain Members, especially those with relatively small majorities...

I can see from my Twitter feed that my courage is already a matter of comment, but my question to...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that oversight is exercised over MPs and that MPs are h...

As I understand the Bill, it proposes that in the event of a custodial sentence of less than 12 m...

I must correct my hon. and learned Friend on a point of detail. Recall would—not can—be triggered...

The Minister is right: that could trigger the Standards Committee to act, but it might not. Is no...

We are looking at the operation of the Standards Committee and how it can be strengthened, as the...

The point was made earlier in the debate that leaflets seek to undermine our reputations in every...

The leaflets that are put out at the general election are not paid for from the public purse, nor...

Order. The Committee should be listening to the Minister. If Members wish to chat they can go els...

In summary, we are dealing with two different conceptions of recall. The Government believe that ...

Is it not the reality that, after manifesto promises, a mealy-mouthed recall Bill will be conside...

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point that we have to respond to the real need, especially post...

The technical concerns—thresholds, costs, frequency—can and will be dealt with on Report and shou...