UK Parliament / Open data

Devolution (Scotland Referendum)

Debate on Tuesday, 14 October 2014, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hague of Richmond. The answering member was Sadiq Khan.
Motion that this House has considered devolution following the Scotland referendum. Motion lapsed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
586 cc166-271 
Session
2014-15
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Devolution in England: the case for local government: Communities and Local Government Committee first report with formal minutes.
Monday, 30 June 2014
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
The parties' published proposals on further devolution for Scotland
Monday, 13 October 2014
Command papers
House of Lords
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
John Bercow | 586 c168 (Link to this contribution)

Before I call the Leader of the House to move the motion, I should inform the House that, on acco...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c168 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move,

That this House has considered devolution following the Scotland referendum....


Show all contributions (399)
Angus Robertson | 586 c168 (Link to this contribution)

Today sees the funeral of Angus Macleod, and I am sure that the Leader of the House and Members o...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c168 (Link to this contribution)

I will come to the political and partisan points of the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, but first ...

Charles Walker | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend give way very briefly?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

Well, I was hoping to come on to the other points, but I will give way again at this early stage....

Charles Walker | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

Before my right hon. Friend gets to the political and partisan points, may I ask him to involve t...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right to make that point as Chair of the Procedure Committee. I certainly give ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

I have not even had a chance to respond to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) yet, so I ...

Cheryl Gillan | 586 c169 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 cc169-170 (Link to this contribution)

I will make just one more point.

The Prime Minister has asked me to chair a Cabinet Committ...

Graham Allen | 586 c170 (Link to this contribution)

The Leader of the House will know that the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which I...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c170 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely, I will. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee and the Procedure Committee...

Kevin Brennan | 586 c170 (Link to this contribution)

It is true that on devolved matters, English MPs do not have a vote, but neither do Welsh MPs, Sc...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c170 (Link to this contribution)

Let me come to that matter. I propose to work briefly and logically through the nations of the Un...

Oliver Heald | 586 c170 (Link to this contribution)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many of us in England, including many of my constituents, we...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c171 (Link to this contribution)

That is, indeed, one solution that could be adopted. I will come to the alternative solutions in ...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c171 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in one moment.

This Government delivered the Scotland Act 2012 and introduc...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c171 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way eventually. If the vow swayed 6% of the ...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c171 (Link to this contribution)

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the vow is unconditional. I think that I can also speak for the ...

Robert Smith | 586 c171 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Leader of the House for making it clear that the vow is unconditional and that the pr...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c171 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. The referendum was described by people on all sides as the ...

Mary MacLeod | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

As someone with a strong Scottish highland heritage, I want a fair settlement for everyone in the...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

The Scottish process will be presided over by Lord Smith of Kelvin, not by me. The Cabinet Commit...

Crispin Blunt | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

May I say gently to my right hon. Friend that the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

All the party leaders supported that, but it is the great joy of our democracy and the House that...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

I will make a bit of progress. Otherwise we will stop on that point.

As in Scotland, the Go...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

As the right hon. Gentleman is from Wales, I will give way to him.

Lord Hanson of Flint | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

One third of my constituents are currently served by hospitals in England. The railway service go...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c172 (Link to this contribution)

As I have said, I will come to the position of England, although the right hon. Gentleman might w...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c173 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way once more to a Government Member.

Dominic Grieve | 586 c173 (Link to this contribution)

When one looks at Welsh devolution, is not one problem that the legislation has been so badly dra...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c173 (Link to this contribution)

There is a good case for that. The structure of the devolution settlement in Wales is an importan...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c173 (Link to this contribution)

I will take one more intervention on Wales.

Ian Lucas | 586 c173 (Link to this contribution)

I want to pick up on the right hon. Gentleman’s point about the health service in north Wales. As...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c174 (Link to this contribution)

As I was saying a moment ago, it is of course true that there are a mass of connections in public...

Lord Beith | 586 c174 (Link to this contribution)

May I point out to my right hon. Friend that we are having increasing difficulty accessing servic...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c174 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, that is important for all of us in the UK.

As is well understood in the House, the dev...

Pete Wishart | 586 c174 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Leader of the House give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c174 (Link to this contribution)

No, I think I will make progress.

Hon. Members completely respect the legitimate need for g...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c174 (Link to this contribution)

That has flushed out quite a few hon. Members, but let me begin by giving way to my hon. Friend t...

Graham Stuart | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is right that there was no appetite in Yorkshire for that proposal, but ther...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with my hon. Friend. Hon. Members on both sides of the House need to listen to that point...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way on that subject to an Opposition Member.

Graham Stringer | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

The Leader of the House is right to remind us that regional assemblies were rejected wherever the...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s point. Much of what we must do is make what we have already wo...

Henry Smith | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

I will first answer the point made by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way a couple more times, first to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman)...

Helen Goodman | 586 c175 (Link to this contribution)

We share a constituency boundary and the Leader of the House knows, as I do, that our constituent...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

These issues are not mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible to believe that there should be ...

Henry Smith | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

The Leader of the House is absolutely right that we should have English votes for English Members...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, absolutely. Some of the city deals already signed include, for instance, parts of Lancashire...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

Let me introduce the next part of my speech, because a lot of Members wish to speak.

It doe...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

I need to emphasise this point. It is no longer fair or just for Scotland to be able to decide it...

Michael Connarty | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way again in a moment; I am trying to give way a lot.

We must establish the pri...

Michael Connarty | 586 c176 (Link to this contribution)

Before the right hon. Gentleman moved on to that structural point, he mentioned the question of l...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c177 (Link to this contribution)

I believe that where a matter only affects England, then key decisions should be made, one way or...

Clive Betts | 586 c177 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Leader of the House for giving way. He said that devolution within the United Kingdom...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c177 (Link to this contribution)

I think across the House we want to be practical and pragmatic about the devolution of powers. [I...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c177 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) and then to my hon. ...

John Denham | 586 c177 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Leader of the House. A few moments ago he said that the way in which English...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

First, I am not claiming to have a monopoly on wisdom. The people of England are already having t...

Julian Smith | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

Labour has 31 MPs in Yorkshire. Has he had any representations thus far from them on their views ...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

I have not had any representations from any of the Labour MPs in Yorkshire; that is true. I was h...

Rory Stewart | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we are looking for a consensual approach with Opposition ...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

The McKay commission proposals are a very good starting point. They are very well thought out, af...

John Bercow | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

I hope it is a point of order, rather than of frustration.

Angus Robertson | 586 c178 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not the case that today’s debate is on devolution following the Scottish referendum, rather...

John Bercow | 586 c179 (Link to this contribution)

Far be it from me to chide a figure of such exalted status in the House as the hon. Gentleman, bu...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c179 (Link to this contribution)

This debate is about the whole of the United Kingdom after the referendum in Scotland. Within 10 ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c179 (Link to this contribution)

The annunciator reads, “Devolution (Scotland Referendum)”, but at the moment we are debating Engl...

John Bercow | 586 c179 (Link to this contribution)

I can observe the annunciator just as well as the hon. Gentleman. I simply advise him that the ti...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 cc179-180 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. It might be good if the Scottish National party, taking heed of the refere...

Jim Sheridan | 586 c180 (Link to this contribution)

The Leader of the House might wish to know that the separatist party has consistently argued that...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c180 (Link to this contribution)

That was one of the arguments put powerfully in the referendum, and clearly the voters took heed....

Christopher Chope | 586 c180 (Link to this contribution)

I wish to explore with my right hon. Friend the idea of going in tandem and at the same pace. As ...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c180 (Link to this contribution)

Without getting into the finer points of cycling, I can say that it is the Prime Minister’s view,...

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 c180 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady does not represent the only other party in the House of Commons. There might be cro...

Angus Robertson | 586 c180 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Hague of Richmond | 586 cc180-1 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think I will give way again, because more than 40 hon. Members wish to speak.

Some...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c181 (Link to this contribution)

We are faced with an anti-politics mood in the country that should alarm each and every one of us...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c181 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a moment. Let me get past my third line.

Today’s debate is an opportunit...

Andrew Bridgen | 586 c181 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate, however, that the matter of English votes for Engli...

Sadiq Khan | 586 cc181-2 (Link to this contribution)

I will do my best, as did the Leader of the House, to make a rational speech and address that ver...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c182 (Link to this contribution)

—and that is a good point at which to give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Graham Stuart | 586 c182 (Link to this contribution)

Has the right hon. Gentleman spoken to many of his own constituents? Are they telling him that th...

Sadiq Khan | 586 cc182-3 (Link to this contribution)

All that I will say to the hon. Gentleman is that that did not work very well in Clacton.

T...

Oliver Heald | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, right to acknowledge that some important changes were mad...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

I am trying my best—as did the Leader of the House—to follow the rational plan and structure of t...

Dominic Grieve | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

Let me make some progress first. I will give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman shortly,...

Dominic Grieve | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

Of course I will give way to the former Attorney-General.

Dominic Grieve | 586 c183 (Link to this contribution)

I participated in the debates on devolution in the late 1990s, and the West Lothian question was ...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c184 (Link to this contribution)

I have a huge amount of respect for the former Attorney-General, but I am afraid that it is incon...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 c184 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c184 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way to the Select Committee Chair in a moment. I want to make some progress first.

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c184 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c184 (Link to this contribution)

I have been hearing heckling and chattering behind my left shoulder for the last five minutes. Th...

John Bercow | 586 c184 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman intervenes, let me remind him that he embarked on an apprentices...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 cc184-5 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Your words of guidance are for ever precious.

The right hon. Gentlem...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c185 (Link to this contribution)

All that I can say is “Was that really worth it?” The hon. Gentleman has been a royal pain for th...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c185 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to the Chair of the Select Committee on Public Administration.

Bernard Jenkin | 586 c185 (Link to this contribution)

We have to understand that dealing with the English votes on English laws question is more diffic...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c186 (Link to this contribution)

With the greatest respect, the best way for the hon. Gentleman’s party to resolve the West Lothia...

Wayne David | 586 c186 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is right. There are enormous conceptual problems with the idea of English vo...

Sadiq Khan | 586 cc186-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. What is remarkable is the speed with which the Leade...

Julian Smith | 586 c187 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman now confirm that there is not a cat in hell’s chance of Labour comi...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c187 (Link to this contribution)

The way the question is premised demonstrates that the hon. Gentleman does not understand that he...

Lord Lansley | 586 c187 (Link to this contribution)

If the shadow Secretary of State is talking about the detail, he must surely come to it first by ...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c187 (Link to this contribution)

If this had been the position of Her Majesty’s Government before UKIP was a threat, one would hav...

Andrew Percy | 586 c187 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman keeps using the phrase “Westminster stitch-up”. Sometimes people try to ...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c188 (Link to this contribution)

I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the £30 billion being devolved from White...

Iain Stewart | 586 c188 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman keeps referring to a Westminster stitch-up or a knee-jerk—[Interruption]...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c188 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Will the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) sit back? The hon. Member for Milton K...

Iain Stewart | 586 c188 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman keeps referring to a Westminster stitch...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c188 (Link to this contribution)

I have accepted that there is an issue. I have not said there is not an issue.

Pete Wishart | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

I have said that we need to address the issue of how English MPs scrutinise legislation.

I ...

Pete Wishart | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

There is some noise from my left which I will try to ignore in order to make some progress.

Pete Wishart | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sadiq Khan | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

There are examples of this being done well. Ireland’s post-2008 constitutional convention is a mo...

Caroline Dinenage | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I represent a constituency in the south of Engla...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

I did not say there was not an issue; I have said there is an issue, but I am also saying there a...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been very persistent.

Pete Wishart | 586 c189 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and thank him most graciously. At l...

Sadiq Khan | 586 c190 (Link to this contribution)

I dearly hope the people of Scotland are watching the behaviour of the Scottish National party Me...

Michael Moore | 586 cc190-1 (Link to this contribution)

We in Scotland have just enjoyed the most amazing democratic moment. It is estimated that 97% of ...

Michael Moore | 586 c191 (Link to this contribution)

Paragraph 30 of the Edinburgh agreement—in which I had the privilege to be involved—was clear abo...

Michael Moore | 586 c191 (Link to this contribution)

I respect the fact that the hon. Gentleman who is trying to intervene and his colleagues will con...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c191 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, and it is good to hear him praise the referendum...

Michael Moore | 586 cc191-2 (Link to this contribution)

I know that SNP Members are the source of many conspiracy theories, but this is a pretty lame one...

Mike Weir | 586 c192 (Link to this contribution)

That may be so—I am listening carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman is saying—but the vow ma...

Michael Moore | 586 c192 (Link to this contribution)

I respect the hon. Gentleman and I appreciate his contribution to the debate. The Smith commissio...

Robert Smith | 586 c192 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my right hon. Friend for the measured way in which he has described the history of how th...

Michael Moore | 586 cc192-3 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Those in the Scottish National party must remember that that ...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 586 c193 (Link to this contribution)

Does my right hon. Friend recall that the constitutional convention embraced the Labour party, th...

Michael Moore | 586 c193 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. and learned Friend rightly points to the history of engagement by the Labour party,...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 c193 (Link to this contribution)

Have we not seen SNP Members demonstrating in the House this afternoon that they are interested n...

Michael Moore | 586 cc193-4 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly think that any attempt to create grievance about the process goes against the grain o...

John Redwood | 586 c194 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as we wish Scotland to have substantial tax-raising pow...

Michael Moore | 586 c194 (Link to this contribution)

I shall come back to the issue of English votes for English laws in a moment.

I believe tha...

Graham Allen | 586 c194 (Link to this contribution)

May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to his remark about greater independence for local gover...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c195 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Interventions are supposed to be brief. The hon. Gentleman is waiting to speak and I am su...

Michael Moore | 586 c195 (Link to this contribution)

Madam Deputy Speaker, you make a very fair point and I will endeavour to conclude shortly. Let me...

Gordon Brown | 586 c195 (Link to this contribution)

In thanking the Leader of the House, the shadow Justice Secretary and the right hon. Member for B...

Pete Wishart | 586 c195 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c195 (Link to this contribution)

Mr Wishart, it had better be a point of order.

Pete Wishart | 586 c195 (Link to this contribution)

I am seeking your guidance on a particular issue, Madam Deputy Speaker. We can understand why the...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c196 (Link to this contribution)

It is quite simple, Mr Wishart. I thought you knew the rules of the House, because you have been ...

Gordon Brown | 586 c196 (Link to this contribution)

Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to congratulate all those who had contributed to the historic and ...

Gordon Brown | 586 c196 (Link to this contribution)

I will pursue my argument and then I will give way. It is a bit much for the hon. Gentleman to wa...

Gordon Brown | 586 c196 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a minute, but I want first to develop this argument. Every generation has had ...

Gordon Brown | 586 c197 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a minute. Clearly that was a change in Scotland’s status in the United Kingdom...

Gordon Brown | 586 c197 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a minute. What makes for a lethal cocktail—the Leader of the House did not eve...

Gordon Brown | 586 c197 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way to the man who is the author of English votes for English laws.

John Redwood | 586 c197 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for endowing me with that honour, but he should re...

Gordon Brown | 586 c198 (Link to this contribution)

Why then, when the McKay committee reported, did the Government say that it needed only a thoroug...

Gordon Brown | 586 c198 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way in a minute. It is the combination of the two proposals to devolve 100% of income...

Graham Stuart | 586 c198 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is there now a convention that those Members of Parlia...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c198 (Link to this contribution)

Just a minute, Mr Brown. That is not a point of order. The hon. Gentleman has been here long enou...

Gordon Brown | 586 cc198-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is whether one talks sense in this House that matters.

I believe—I am happy for the Lead...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c199 (Link to this contribution)

Is the right hon. Gentleman telling this House that he signed up to a vow without knowing the det...

Gordon Brown | 586 c199 (Link to this contribution)

I signed up to a vow that I will keep. It was the Prime Minister, on the day after the referendum...

Iain Stewart | 586 c199 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. May I thank him for the impassioned defence of th...

Gordon Brown | 586 cc199-200 (Link to this contribution)

I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I am coming to that and to the proposals that might so...

Gordon Brown | 586 c200 (Link to this contribution)

I am going to answer the point that I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman is about to raise.

Oliver Heald | 586 c200 (Link to this contribution)

My constituents in Letchworth want to know why it is that the right hon. Gentleman should be able...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c201 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I remind you, Mr Brown—I said the same to Mr Moore—that the time limit will apply after yo...

Gordon Brown | 586 c201 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) has not been listenin...

Pete Wishart | 586 c201 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Gordon Brown | 586 cc201-2 (Link to this contribution)

I gave way once to a Scottish National party Member, and that was quite enough.

It has long...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c202 (Link to this contribution)

Order. There is now a six-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches, although it might be necessar...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 c202 (Link to this contribution)

It is always a pleasure to follow the former Prime Minister and, in a moment, I will deal head on...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 c202 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps the hon. Lady will now tell us.

Margaret Curran | 586 c203 (Link to this contribution)

I am quite taken by the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is so focused on the role of Scottish ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 c203 (Link to this contribution)

The proposition in my party’s manifesto was absolutely clear: it applies to Members of this House...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 cc203-4 (Link to this contribution)

I want to make some progress and so will not give way.

In 1999, it looked as though we migh...

Ian Davidson | 586 cc204-5 (Link to this contribution)

What we recently saw in Scotland was a historic vote. We now have to recognise that Scotland’s co...

Ann McKechin | 586 c205 (Link to this contribution)

I very much agree with my hon. Friend that this should be start of a new debate about the changes...

Ian Davidson | 586 cc205-6 (Link to this contribution)

I very much support that, as do, I think, the vast majority of people in the Labour party and man...

Andrew Bridgen | 586 c206 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman agrees with this:

“If it’s wrong and something needs to...

Ian Davidson | 586 c206 (Link to this contribution)

I do think that the West Lothian question should be addressed, but not by sending Scots out of th...

Roger Gale | 586 cc206-7 (Link to this contribution)

I think I know what my constituents do and do not want to see. They want to see a holistic soluti...

Graham Allen | 586 cc207-8 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to address the federal Parliament today. Like ma...

Graham Stringer | 586 c208 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making some profound points. In 2010, public expenditure in Greater Manchester ...

Graham Allen | 586 c208 (Link to this contribution)

I strongly support my hon. Friend’s record of achievement in pressing the case for Manchester and...

David Rutley | 586 c208 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the powerful speech he is giving. Does he agree that it is also vi...

Graham Allen | 586 cc208-9 (Link to this contribution)

The independence of local government to do things appropriate to its level will actually encourag...

William Cash | 586 cc210-1 (Link to this contribution)

In answer to the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), I simply say that al...

Oliver Heald | 586 c211 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend accept that when we recently looked in detail at the issue of privilege, alth...

William Cash | 586 c211 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), I and others were on the Commi...

Christopher Chope | 586 c211 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend recall that when Enoch Powell was a member of the Procedure Committee, he use...

William Cash | 586 cc211-2 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. To his great credit, Tam Dalyell admitted that it was Enoch Powell who first raised t...

Pete Wishart | 586 cc212-3 (Link to this contribution)

What an extraordinary and remarkable event the referendum was. It was absolutely fantastic. None ...

Pamela Nash | 586 c213 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Pamela Nash | 586 c213 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. People in Scotland will know that the SNP and the yes c...

Pete Wishart | 586 c213 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady raises an important point. When we talk about England-only legislation, we are talk...

Gerald Howarth | 586 c213 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is in danger of saying something that is not entirely in...

Pete Wishart | 586 cc213-4 (Link to this contribution)

This is what it is all about. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. The Scottish p...

David Jones | 586 cc214-5 (Link to this contribution)

It is clear that the sound and fury generated by the referendum campaign has still not entirely d...

John Redwood | 586 c215 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend clarify whether Wales will want to have devolved power to set its own i...

David Jones | 586 c215 (Link to this contribution)

That matter is already covered by the Wales Bill. It will be a matter for the people of Wales, in...

Wayne David | 586 c215 (Link to this contribution)

A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the reserved powers model. Can he explain why ...

David Jones | 586 cc216-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thought I made that clear a moment ago: it was as a consequence of the judgment in the Agricult...

Tom Clarke | 586 c217 (Link to this contribution)

Tempting though it is, I shall not rehearse the arguments we heard again and again during the ref...

Brian H Donohoe | 586 c217 (Link to this contribution)

Devolution was not supposed to end at the front door of the Scottish Parliament; it was supposed ...

Tom Clarke | 586 cc217-8 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree. Let me say, as a former president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authori...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 586 c218 (Link to this contribution)

I have the advantage of having heard the most perceptive and well-reasoned speech by my right hon...

Graham Stuart | 586 c218 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 586 cc218-9 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am going to make some progress.

I had the advantage, if that is the right way to put ...

Graham Stuart | 586 c219 (Link to this contribution)

My constituents see the Labour party as having acted in self-interest by refusing to put right th...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 586 cc219-220 (Link to this contribution)

I am not suggesting we hit it into the long grass. All I am suggesting is that, before we make a ...

Anas Sarwar | 586 cc220-2 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to speak after the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell...

Christopher Chope | 586 c221 (Link to this contribution)

I speak as a Conservative and as a Unionist, and as a graduate of the finest university in Scotla...

Fiona O'Donnell | 586 c221 (Link to this contribution)

On having a two-thirds majority for constitutional change, is the hon. Gentleman saying that he w...

Christopher Chope | 586 cc221-3 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not saying that. I would put the question round the other way and require a two-thirds m...

Lady Hermon | 586 c223 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman, having quoted what the Prime Minister said on the steps of 10 Downing street,...

Christopher Chope | 586 c223 (Link to this contribution)

We keep the UK united by ensuring that we have a strong United Kingdom Parliament, in which we ha...

Christopher Chope | 586 c223 (Link to this contribution)

I will not, I am afraid.

That is what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had in mind w...

Christopher Chope | 586 cc223-4 (Link to this contribution)

I will not give way again because many Members wish to contribute to the debate.

If, as is ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 586 c224 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Before I call the next speaker, it will be obvious to the House that a time limit of six m...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 586 c224 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the minute.

The previous speech exemplified what I...

Jake Berry | 586 c224 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that the biggest danger faced by our United Kingdom is f...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 586 cc224-5 (Link to this contribution)

I do not accept that for one second. The biggest threat to the integrity of the United Kingdom wo...

Mark Tami | 586 c225 (Link to this contribution)

I represent a border constituency. Although health is devolved in Wales, our children’s hospital ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 586 c225 (Link to this contribution)

Of course, and my hon. Friend should therefore be able to vote on matters affecting the hospitals...

Graham Stuart | 586 c225 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) was absolutely right when he pointed out th...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 586 c226 (Link to this contribution)

I rather fancy that not one MP or MSP has had that argument raised with them when they go knockin...

Oliver Heald | 586 cc226-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am surprised that the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) said that the Conservatives, ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 586 c227 (Link to this contribution)

Let me tell the hon. and learned Gentleman that I was in no way suggesting that the Conservative ...

Oliver Heald | 586 c227 (Link to this contribution)

I would not accept that.

The political parties have now promised even more powers to Scotla...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c227 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Oliver Heald | 586 c227 (Link to this contribution)

No, not at the moment.

Devolution for England is not an arcane topic—it is a demand of the ...

Clive Betts | 586 c227 (Link to this contribution)

I have listened very carefully to the words that the hon. and learned Gentleman has used. He talk...

Oliver Heald | 586 cc227-8 (Link to this contribution)

I bet that the people of Sheffield want English votes for English laws, and now is the time for t...

Linda Riordan | 586 cc228-9 (Link to this contribution)

For the past four years I have been involved in the Hannah Mitchell Foundation, which has led the...

Robert Syms | 586 c229 (Link to this contribution)

There was one very big difference: in the 1970s, the legislation and the debate happened in Parli...

Linda Riordan | 586 c229 (Link to this contribution)

Exactly. Times change and things change. The policy on devolution should not be based on one refe...

Andrew Percy | 586 c229 (Link to this contribution)

As a fellow Yorkshire MP, may I tell the hon. Lady that there is absolutely zero appetite in York...

Linda Riordan | 586 cc229-230 (Link to this contribution)

It depends what area is surveyed, because there are different opinions in different areas, but th...

Iain Stewart | 586 c230 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the opportunity to participate in this important debate. I speak as someone born and ra...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c230 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman think that English votes for English laws is enough for England? As we he...

Iain Stewart | 586 c231 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has tee’d up neatly another section of my speech, so if he bides his time, I w...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c231 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is kind to give way a second time, and I appreciate it. Much of today’s debate...

Iain Stewart | 586 cc231-2 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman misses my point. I am not saying that that is not an issue, but what happens h...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 586 cc232-3 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful for the opportunity to participate in this debate, which is about devolution a...

John Redwood | 586 c233 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether Northern Ireland likes her current settlemen...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 586 c233 (Link to this contribution)

The talks on the future of devolution in Northern Ireland are about to begin in Belfast in the co...

Lady Hermon | 586 c233 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for taking a second intervention so soon after he took ...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 586 cc233-4 (Link to this contribution)

I will come to corporation tax later, but my understanding is that the decision is not dependent ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 586 c234 (Link to this contribution)

I will have to reduce the time limit to four minutes after the next speaker. There is no point in...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc234-5 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will try to be as brief as I can.

I am very pleased to f...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c235 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Gentleman support full fiscal autonomy for Scotland? That is the logical solu...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc235-6 (Link to this contribution)

We are committed to retaining the Barnett formula. There will be an extension of the ability to r...

John Redwood | 586 c236 (Link to this contribution)

Is my right hon. Friend seriously suggesting that Scotland could set its own income tax at a lowe...

Lord Lansley | 586 c236 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I am, because it is untenable to have a separate vote by English MPs on English income tax, ...

Gregg McClymont | 586 cc236-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is several hours since the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and

Gregg McClymont | 586 c237 (Link to this contribution)

I want to develop my argument.

On 18 September, the Scottish people said yes; they said yes...

Gregg McClymont | 586 c237 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene?

Stewart Hosie | 586 c237 (Link to this contribution)

I should be delighted.

The hon. Gentleman is making a number of very interesting points whi...

Lindsay Hoyle | 586 c237 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We have a lot to get into the debate, and Members rightly wish to contribute. We cannot al...

Gregg McClymont | 586 c238 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is very comforting at one level to hear the words of the hon. Me...

Lord Beith | 586 c238 (Link to this contribution)

I am very glad of the opportunity to say a brief word about how the north-east of England is affe...

John Redwood | 586 c238 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Beith | 586 cc238-9 (Link to this contribution)

I want to make some progress. The right hon. Gentleman may want to intervene later.

The sec...

John Redwood | 586 c239 (Link to this contribution)

I intervene because I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman understands the Barnett formula....

Lord Beith | 586 cc239-240 (Link to this contribution)

The north-east of England is not protected within that England formula. That is the point that I ...

Julie Elliott | 586 c240 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith)—somebody...

Jim Cunningham | 586 c240 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the contributory factors to the situation we find ourselves...

Julie Elliott | 586 cc240-1 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more, and I am going to talk about some of the practicalities that we face.

...
Julie Elliott | 586 c241 (Link to this contribution)

No, I will not give way.

This debate is a result of the Scottish referendum. Whereas I tota...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 c241 (Link to this contribution)

I fully concur with the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) that since the referen...

John Stevenson | 586 c241 (Link to this contribution)

I agree wholeheartedly with what my hon. Friend is saying about devolution within England. Does h...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 cc241-2 (Link to this contribution)

I totally agree with that. I will come back to the question of English votes for English laws lat...

Pete Wishart | 586 c242 (Link to this contribution)

This is a matter that we are trying to determine today. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the ri...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 c242 (Link to this contribution)

No, I think it was a panic reaction to a late poll. It was something that they were desperate to ...

Bernard Jenkin | 586 cc242-3 (Link to this contribution)

I have given way twice already; I do apologise.

The House of Lords produced a very good rep...

Graeme Morrice | 586 cc243-4 (Link to this contribution)

September 18 was a memorable day for Scotland. It was a day when millions of Scots made their way...

Robert Syms | 586 cc244-5 (Link to this contribution)

As a Conservative Unionist, I was a veteran of the debates of the late 1990s, and I have to say t...

Stephen Hammond | 586 c245 (Link to this contribution)

The logical conclusion of my hon. Friend’s remarks is that we must find an equitable and just sol...

Robert Syms | 586 c245 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I certainly think that that is the case, but we must consider the situation north of the bor...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c245 (Link to this contribution)

I am quite impressed that the hon. Gentleman has allowed logic to overcome his earlier beliefs ag...

Robert Syms | 586 cc245-6 (Link to this contribution)

There are of course issues relating to the fact that we are interdependent within the economy. Th...

Cathy Jamieson | 586 c246 (Link to this contribution)

I am a proud Scot and a firm believer in the principles of devolution. I campaigned tirelessly fo...

Jim Shannon | 586 c246 (Link to this contribution)

The only region of the United Kingdom to have devolved powers for matters covered by the Departme...

Cathy Jamieson | 586 c247 (Link to this contribution)

I think I used the phrase, “You had better be careful what you wish for” a number of times during...

Frank Roy | 586 c247 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that devolution, by its very sense, needs to happen in Ayrshire, Lanark...

Cathy Jamieson | 586 cc247-8 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with my hon. Friend. Some of the criticisms have been that the Scottish Parliament has so...

Alan Reid | 586 c248 (Link to this contribution)

I am very pleased that on a huge turnout the Scottish people voted by a decisive majority in favo...

Sammy Wilson | 586 c248 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the more devolution there is of tax, borrowing, revenue and s...

Alan Reid | 586 c248 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but that is why I believe that Scotland should remai...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c248 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman talks of a strong, democratic Scotland. Does he not feel that full fiscal auto...

Alan Reid | 586 cc248-9 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think the hon. Gentleman was listening to my reply to the hon. Member for East Antrim (S...

Lindsay Hoyle | 586 c250 (Link to this contribution)

Let me just say that after the next speech I will have to reduce the time limit to three minutes....

John Denham | 586 cc250-1 (Link to this contribution)

It is at times like this that we are reminded of Disraeli’s observation that the English are gove...

John Redwood | 586 c251 (Link to this contribution)

When I launched my “speak for England” campaign, I did not consult Mr Crosby; I did it because 70...

John Denham | 586 c251 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman proposed an English Parliament, but he will have noticed that the Prime ...

Andrew Percy | 586 cc251-2 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker, for being away from the Chamber for a period this afternoon due t...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c252 (Link to this contribution)

I just want to make it clear that all we are talking about devolving to Scotland are Scotland’s p...

Andrew Percy | 586 c252 (Link to this contribution)

It is a devolution of powers that will massively change the relationship between England and Scot...

John Redwood | 586 c252 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is completely bogus to say that it is difficult to define an En...

Andrew Percy | 586 cc252-3 (Link to this contribution)

I quite agree. I am not the brightest person on planet Earth—most of my constituents are a lot br...

Jonathan Edwards | 586 c253 (Link to this contribution)

Westminster is a broken system. Essentially, we have three parties that have morphed into one as ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c253 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the difference in the strength of the current Welsh Assembly and S...

Jonathan Edwards | 586 cc253-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for that intervention, and it is a point that I am sure we will make quite clear wh...

Pete Wishart | 586 c254 (Link to this contribution)

I am wondering whether my hon. Friend is aware of any representations made by the First Minister ...

Jonathan Edwards | 586 cc254-5 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. The First Minister made a big play about his call for...

Sarah Newton | 586 cc255-6 (Link to this contribution)

As a Conservative, I am proud of our record of creating and supporting the evolution of the Union...

William Bain | 586 c256 (Link to this contribution)

For the past two and a half years, the people of Scotland have been engaged in record numbers in ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c256 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the powers of the Crown Estate should be transferred from the ...

William Bain | 586 cc256-7 (Link to this contribution)

If that proposal is in the submission to the Smith commission, other colleagues and I will look a...

Neil Carmichael | 586 c257 (Link to this contribution)

First, I want to make it abundantly clear how pleased I am that Scotland will remain part of the ...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 586 c257 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the vast majority of legislation considered by the House has ...

Neil Carmichael | 586 cc257-8 (Link to this contribution)

The answer to the hon. Lady’s question largely revolves around what powers are finally transferre...

Simon Danczuk | 586 cc258-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael).

Let me start brief...

Julian Smith | 586 cc259-260 (Link to this contribution)

The Yorkshire economy is twice the size of that of Wales. Yorkshire’s population, at 5.3 million,...

Jamie Reed | 586 cc260-1 (Link to this contribution)

Speaking as the MP for the most remote English constituency from Westminster, I am glad that we a...

John Redwood | 586 c261 (Link to this contribution)

The three leaders of the main parties made generous offers to Scotland. I am sure that they wish ...

Pete Wishart | 586 c261 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: he has been totally consistent. I actually used him...

John Redwood | 586 cc261-2 (Link to this contribution)

My voice is central to this debate because that is what the English people wish. I am merely tryi...

John Redwood | 586 c262 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene?

Lindsay Hoyle | 586 c262 (Link to this contribution)

Order. The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) has only just wal...

John Redwood | 586 c262 (Link to this contribution)

I say that we need justice for England, and that we need to embark on this course now. We could b...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 586 cc262-3 (Link to this contribution)

Devolution has been a major political issue in Scotland for decades, indeed generations. There ha...

John Bercow | 586 c263 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Five colleagues remain on the list. There is a three-minute limit, but if colleagues can s...

Graham Stuart | 586 cc263-4 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Speaker—well, I think it’s thank you, anyway.

This debate takes places just f...

Mark Lazarowicz | 586 cc264-5 (Link to this contribution)

Given that the result of the referendum showed clearly that Scotland was divided down the middle ...

David Mowat | 586 c265 (Link to this contribution)

I will try to limit my remarks to two minutes.

Three years ago I was on the Scottish Affair...

Margaret Curran | 586 cc265-7 (Link to this contribution)

This has been a wide-ranging and—dare I say—exciting debate. It has been inspired by recent event...

Andrew Percy | 586 c267 (Link to this contribution)

I can clearly define an English vote on an English law, but we cannot clearly define the vow that...

Margaret Curran | 586 cc267-8 (Link to this contribution)

These are important points. The hon. Gentleman suggests that the constitutional convention we are...

Alistair Carmichael | 586 cc268-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is an enormous pleasure to conclude what has been one of the best debates on a range of consti...

Angus Robertson | 586 c269 (Link to this contribution)

I was wondering why the right hon. Gentleman did not hear what I said in my first intervention on...

Alistair Carmichael | 586 c269 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman answered only half of my challenge. He was challenged to say that we will not ...

Angus Robertson | 586 c269 (Link to this contribution)

For the record—[Hon. Members: “Ah!”] For the record, is the Secretary of State for Scotland now a...

Alistair Carmichael | 586 cc269-270 (Link to this contribution)

Weasel words, Mr Speaker. I do not think we need to waste any more time listening to the contribu...

John Redwood | 586 c270 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Conservative party has been going on about this since th...

Alistair Carmichael | 586 c270 (Link to this contribution)

I enjoyed the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution and understand the passion he brings to the deb...

William Cash | 586 c270 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Secretary of State give way?

Alistair Carmichael | 586 cc270-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but I am really up against it for time now.

The Liberal Democrats have been cle...

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