Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

May I say at the outset that I propose to speak first to the Government amendments and then to le...

I will address all the Government and Opposition new clauses and amendments, but I will spend mor...

I will speak in particular about clause 58 on interveners, about which the hon. Member for Hammer...

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman letting me make an intervention and therefore be an intervener. H...

The hon. Lady is right and I will not charge her for my costs in responding to her intervention—I...

I wish to speak broadly to amendments 23 to 32 to clause 55 in part 4 of the Bill, and to the “hi...

I thank the Minister for the constructive way in which he has engaged with me and others on the p...

Before my hon. Friend’s fascinating speech terminates too soon, I wonder how much difference he t...

My right hon. Friend takes a particular interest in these matters, and we are ad idem—as lawyers ...

I am enjoying all the autobiographical stuff, but I would love to hear why the hon. Gentleman thi...

I am sorry to say—perhaps not for the first time—gently, and with the affection of one legal prof...

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the real risk here is that those people who are least able...

I cannot say that that has been my experience. If we were removing the process of judicial review...

But the issue is who will pay for the interveners for those people who have least access to finan...

With respect to the hon. Lady, it is seldom persons in that category who are the interveners; the...

My hon. Friend is making a good point about the impact of the threat of judicial review on local ...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who leads me neatly on to the next point I wanted to make. It is...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that good and honourable local authority people sometimes get it wr...

I am not sure whether you would agree, Mr Speaker. I take the hon. Lady’s point, but I do not thi...

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s giving way on this point. In Northern Ireland, we have the ludi...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As an ex-Minister, I break no confidence in saying that when ...

Order. It is always a delight to enjoy the free-flowing eloquence of the hon. Gentleman as he dev...

I rather suspect, Mr Speaker, that you have anticipated how my ministerial career came to an end ...

My hon. Friend is making an important point. When constituents write to me about planning inquiri...

I am grateful, and that provides a suitable point for me to conclude. The costs apply not just to...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), not so muc...

Can the hon. Gentleman provide any examples of where that might have occurred? I am finding it ve...

That is not the view of my Committee. I commend our report to the hon. Lady, if she has not read ...

I support the Government’s aim to tame, but not to undermine, judicial review. As I understand th...

There are two major differences. First, bad decision making is bad decision making, whatever the ...

I beg to disagree. I entirely understand what the Government are trying to do. They are trying to...

I think that my right hon. Friend has hit on a very interesting point. It seems to me iniquitous ...

I do wonder whether a period of six weeks is required. Presumably the proposal relates to a typic...

The Government tell us that they want to make changes to the judicial review process because too ...

Does the hon. Lady not understand the point that I was making? It is erroneous to suggest, as the...

I happen to believe otherwise, and I do not think that I am alone. For instance, Lord Dyson, the ...

Does the hon. Lady not accept that judicial review can be used by people on the right as well as ...

Walter Bagehot talked about the fact that in our system we needed the three separate bodies—the E...

Does the hon. Lady not accept that in a democracy the remedy for bad legislation is at an electio...

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To have the courts second-guessing the legislature undermines democracy.

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Order. Both hon. Members cannot be on their feet at the same time. If the hon. Lady gives way to ...

Yes.

Although we talk about democracy, bad laws have been created, and we cannot wait five years until...

I think I am getting a little confused, and it may be entirely my fault. I was under the impressi...

I entirely agree with that. Those of us who have been practitioners of law—a few such Members are...

What would the hon. Lady say to the residents of Wickford near the Dale farm estate whose local c...

I am not going to talk about individual constituents in particular constituencies, and I cannot c...

Order. I have let “you” go a few times, but in fairness, I am not guilty of any of this and I cer...

I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker; I got a bit carried away.

In a civilised society and a democ...

I want to reflect on the impact of the growth of judicial review on local authority decision maki...

There has been no growth in judicial review. If one exempts immigration cases, for the reasons gi...

Whatever the statistics, the essence of the point is that the threat of and culture created by ju...

As someone who served on a local authority for six years, I have to say that I do not recognise t...

Nobody is arguing that there is not an important balance to be struck, taking into account, as ot...

My hon. Friend is making a very important point. Does he agree that the concern about the growth ...

I agree with my hon. Friend. We need to take measures such as those in the Bill, which I support,...

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but it is not borne out by the facts. From ...

There is a balance to be struck, and direct accountability is an issue. We want a culture in whic...

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I will not give way again. I am drawing my remarks to a conclusion.

We should not create an...

I rise to speak with some trepidation as I face a Chamber full of lawyers and barristers; I am ne...

Does the hon. Lady agree that the main way in which our constituents should get redress from bad ...

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but he puts forward a false position. In t...

I thank all those who have contributed to the debate, and I hope that I can put on the record at ...

I hope that the Minister will not read a prepared speech but address a subject that was raised in...

I am addressing the issues concerned. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not like them, but ...

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 7—

“Possessing a...

I am grateful for this opportunity to speak to new clauses 6 and 7, which set out that adults wou...

I have spent some time among gangs in Birmingham trying to understand gang culture and I support ...

My hon. Friend touches on the important point that people should not see the carrying of a knife ...

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the Home Affairs Committee report on knife crime, published in 200...

I read many Select Committee reports and I am aware of that one, but I remind the hon. Gentleman ...

Clacton has seen a spate of knife crime in recent months; the new clause will cut knife crime by ...

My hon. Friend’s message is exactly the one I want to send. However, as I will go on to explain, ...

My hon. Friend has obviously done a lot of research. He mentioned at the outset that a large numb...

It is difficult to establish from 16,000 cases exactly what went on, but I was intrigued by the r...

My hon. Friend makes a powerful case, and it is difficult to see what grounds there could possibl...

In fairness, the strongest representations have come from our coalition partners, as my right hon...

On the point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), I...

I agree. Sadly, that is particularly true for younger offenders, for whom sentencing in London is...

The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. He carefully avoided the question of my hon. ...

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. In my follow-up paragraph, I deal direc...

I am following what my hon. Friend is saying very closely. I entirely agree that there has to be ...

My hon. Friend is as insightful as ever. I would put it more crudely. I do not believe that peopl...

I concur with and support everything that my hon. Friend has said. On listening to victims and vi...

Indeed. My hon. Friend’s constituent’s relatives have my deepest sympathy for what they have expe...

Let me draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to new section (5B), which says:

“Where a person...

I am sure that as we have constantly been advocating that the courts should have control of all m...

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It would be extremely helpful if the hon. Gentleman would let me answer his first intervention. W...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer, but what we are looking for is an illustration of a r...

I am very happy to answer that question. The clauses the hon. Gentleman voted for in the Legal Ai...

On messaging and deterrence, one of the critical issues is the certainty of being caught and the ...

The Metropolitan Police Commissioner wrote to the Government several months ago urging them to in...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Let me make a little more progress; I think I have been pretty generous so far.

As my hon. ...

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In fairness, we ought to remember that other Members wish to speak.

Let me summarise someth...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification, because the Deputy Prime Minister’s lack of kn...

The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely valid and pertinent point. I will put it much cruder:...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I was just about to wind up, but I give way to my fellow member of the Justice Committee.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and apologise for missing the first part of this speech...

I remember those evidence sessions and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of th...

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I am sorry, but I will not give way any more.

Our new clauses make clear to criminals, the ...

I was not going to speak in this debate, but we have heard some powerful arguments. I support the...

This group covers several issues, but let me start with the Government new clauses and amendments...

Will the Minister take account of the one new element in the situation, the development of social...

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. He makes a very good point. That is one of the things that...

When some of those measures were passed, full consideration was given to their consequences. What...

As my hon. Friend and distinguished predecessor will understand better than most, these are not G...

The Minister, quite rightly, is using his words carefully. Following the intervention from my hon...

My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North made the position very clear. It is a mandatory sente...

I do not understand how my hon. Friend can vigorously oppose new clause 34, despite its evident m...

My hon. Friend is right that if he is in agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Ph...

The Minister coyly described flaws in the new clauses. Would he care to list them so that the Hou...

I am not sure that this is the appropriate time. There are some minor and technical flaws, but my...

I will take a different approach from the Minister’s and address the majority of my remarks to ne...

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the policies of the last Government to deal with knife crime fa...

That is a peculiar conclusion to reach from the comments I have just made. The hon. Gentleman wil...

Over my many years in the House, I have heard the expression “A message must go out from this Hou...

The right hon. Gentleman has been here for a very long time and perhaps cynicism has entered his ...

It is a pleasure to speak in the debate, not least because I have been ill over the last couple o...

My hon. Friend refers to being a defence barrister. I am sure he was very distinguished. Referenc...

I can actually think of occasions when I looked at a magistrate and knew my client was inevitably...

Ought not the court to consider what sentence would make it most likely that the person concerned...

Obviously the court will always be concerned with the issue of reoffending. However, it must bala...

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman cannot work out the answer to his own question. There is a...

It is clear that they are different offences, but my point is that the Deputy Prime Minister thin...

I am puzzling over this as well. The Deputy Prime Minister said this in his article in The Guardi...

The hon. Gentleman may have put his finger on it. Perhaps the issue is the media, and the differe...

I welcome new clauses 45 and 46 that would hold care home providers to account. Police Operation ...

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I want to begin by paying tribute to the quality of the...

I want to return to the point that I am really struggling with. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s...

If the hon. Gentleman wants to personalise this, in fact, I did not support it. He can check the ...

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I will happily give way, but I should highlight the fact that commissioner Hitchcock was talking ...

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I will happily give way to the hon. Gentleman. It is always a pleasure to hear him try to stand u...

Whatever.

Yes, there is the question of the second offence, but more importantly, all the e...

I find fascinating the hon. Gentleman’s efforts to bridge everything: he is in favour of mandator...

The hon. Gentleman will agree that it is important to look at existing legislation rather than to...

I confess that I am not a lawyer, but I think that it would be hard to make a defence—those who a...

Does the hon. Gentleman not see a contradiction in what he is saying? He says that no one will pa...

The hon. Gentleman normally listens carefully. What I said, very clearly, was that if anybody lis...

Turning that around, the hon. Gentleman is part of a coalition that says that there is plenty of ...

We may be going down a sidetrack, but I am delighted that under this Government there are fewer w...

I do wish that the hon. Gentleman would not rile the Front Benchers, because we end up going off ...

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point that I had not thought to add. He is absolutely ...

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that although the focus of new clauses 6 and 7 is on knives and bla...

I have not checked the exact wording, but I suspect that some things would not fall into that cat...

I cannot see how that is covered in the new clauses, and it might be worth getting some clarity f...

Perhaps that is one of the flaws. I will move on, because I am not in a position to arbitrate bet...

May I ask the hon. Gentleman to factor in one other matter, as I think that his attention to the ...

I am fascinated that the hon. Gentleman is prepared to pay £20 million. My point is not for or ag...

Does my hon. Friend agree with my proposal that in order to ensure that sentences are looked at i...

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Order. The hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way, but he has been speaking for some...

I am starting the last page of my speech and I shall try to avoid taking more interventions.

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Order. I remind hon. Members that this debate ends at 6 o’clock and we have to go back to the mov...

I will restrict my remarks to new clauses 6 and 7 moved by the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nic...

I broadly agree with what the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said, but equally I...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). I sha...

I want to support and amplify what the hon. Lady is saying. The families of people who have lost ...

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. People sometimes assume that those killed as a result o...

As the hon. Lady will understand, I will not have a chance to sum up this debate, so I will respo...

I am grateful to the Minister for those remarks. However, most people would still agree that the ...

I confess that I had intended to make only a short intervention today. However, having listened t...

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and commend him on his ne...

rose—

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he now has something to say.

It was not that I forgot; it is simply that I did not think the new clauses were worth commenting...

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. We have commented on whether people take notice of ...

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It is no good the hon. Gentleman coming back; he does not care about any of these issues, and lot...

I do not doubt for a moment the sincerity of the hon. Gentleman’s objectives. He may well have a ...

If the Minister had listened when I explained the case of Donald Banfield, he would know that it ...

I rise to support new clauses 6 and 7, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nic...

I am listening with great interest to my hon. Friend’s correct analysis of the situation. Of the ...

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point with which I totally agree.

We have a responsibility ...

The minimum for guns is five years, not six months.

It is the principle, really. We can go into fine distinctions, but the principle is that a mandat...

At Prime Minister’s questions, I asked:

“Why is he ignoring knife crime?”

In reply, t...

I am grateful to the whole House. Much of the debate has focused on the new clauses that I have t...

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

Let me start by thanking all the r...

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Lord Chancellor but will Members who are leaving the Chamber p...

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I am grateful to the Under-Secretaries of State for Justic...

I also begin by thanking Members from both sides of the House who have worked extremely hard duri...

I was unfortunate enough to practise at the Bar when the previous Government had 13 years and doz...

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has read the Prime Minister’s article that was published on Sun...

rose—

I appreciate that a reshuffle is due and the hon. Gentleman needs to impress the Whips, but he wi...

Order. The hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) knows that in all professional practice one stan...

I was reminding the House of the 18 new clauses that the Justice Secretary brought before the Hou...

I support this Bill. It contains important measures, including tougher sentences for terrorist of...

Hertfordshire is a very safe place to live—one of the safest in the country. However, just over a...

I agree that the issue is about sending a message that carrying knives is not acceptable, so educ...

I welcome the additional support for victims and their families in the Bill, but I think it would...

I, too, am sad that my hon. Friend did not get an opportunity to debate her new clauses, because ...

I thank my hon. Friend for her support.

Order. Before the hon. Lady responds to the intervention, I must remind her that at this point in...

I welcome the additional support for victims and their families, but the Bill would have been imp...

Order. The hon. Lady might be making a very interesting—and possibly worthy—point, but it does no...

I entirely accept what you say, Madam Deputy Speaker, but you will appreciate that it is sometime...

I hope I will not detain the House for too long. I have had the opportunity to speak about many o...

I was not able to be here earlier in the consideration of the Bill, so I will speak briefly on Th...

I want to put on record my abhorrence at the idea of the giant children’s prison. Not one of the ...

Can the hon. Lady draw my attention to where in the Bill the word “restraint” appears?

Standing here now, no I cannot, but I will be happy to provide that evidence. If the Secretary of...

I was on the Committee when this matter was debated, and the Bill contains a number of provisions...

I agree with what the hon. Lady is saying about prevention. How did she vote a few moments ago, w...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that helpful intervention. I have never said that people should no...

Does my hon. Friend agree that some people, both young and older, need to be removed from society...

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Order. Before the hon. Lady replies to that intervention, I know that she will be careful to stic...

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. She and I were on the Bill Committee and I know that the Go...

Does my hon. Friend agree that we do not have a category of “victims” and a category of “offender...

I entirely agree and can give an example to the House of a case I had when I was a prosecutor. A ...

My hon. Friend is making good points, particularly about the secure colleges and why they need to...

You will be pleased to know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I shall now move to other aspects of the ...