Care Bill [Lords]

My honourable colleague from the Health Committee mentions pharmaceutical companies. Does she fee...

That is absolutely correct and I will come to those points later in my remarks. The public did no...

The hon. Lady makes an excellent case. The maximum fine for an individual breaching the data clau...

I thank the shadow Minister for making the point that £5,000 is woefully inadequate. The financia...

Given that the intention, as I understand it, is to create wholly anonymised data, surely the use...

I agree with my right hon. Friend. Free text takes us into a different territory. People say thin...

The hon. Lady was in the Chamber yesterday when I talked about the cloud systems using NHS patien...

Linking primary and secondary care data is so important, but the purpose to which it is put is at...

In my early career, I worked as a systems programmer and engineer for IBM. I do not usually have ...

The hon. Lady is making important points about the need to be clear about what these data are use...

In the concerns I am listing, I am not touching on the use of data in medical research. My concer...

My hon. Friend is making pertinent and relevant points. Does she share my concern about the need ...

Indeed it is. There is a question about why CCGs have to have identifiable patient data, and ther...

Does the hon. Lady agree that we have an opportunity, in the next six months, to provide reassura...

I would like to think so, but I am not going to hold my breath. I think I am a lot more pessimist...

I have worked alongside the hon. Lady to try to improve our social care system, so does she not a...

Yes, indeed, but I cannot emphasise enough that I do not feel much confidence at the moment and I...

I was under the illusion that there would be five speakers ahead of me, but I am none the less pl...

I read a blog article this morning written from the point of view of people with disabilities who...

That is the issue, summed up in a couple of sentences. The Minister may look to his civil servant...

May I reiterate what I said many times in my opening remarks, which I hope will be helpful to the...

Earlier I referred to Macmillan and to Cancer Research UK who, even today, are not convinced. We ...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with many commentators, including the British Medical Association, ...

The hon. Lady is right that the amendments would go a long way to addressing that issue. I hope t...

It is a great honour to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who touched on an in...

Does my hon. Friend agree that early diagnosis is one the keys to improving cancer outcomes? By l...

That is a very important point. Without the sharing of data, such patterns would not occur and we...

The hon. Lady is making a powerful case for the benefits of a system that would make it possible ...

The hon. Gentleman has given yet another reason for the importance of collecting and sharing data...

The hon. Lady clearly supports such uses of the databases, but, as I said earlier, there is conce...

In many of our inquiries, we have looked into international collaborations between universities t...

The hon. Lady is making a strong point. I visited the oesophageal cancer research unit at Southam...

We could spend a great deal of time talking about different types of medical research that are en...

The hon. Lady is being extremely generous in taking so many interventions. I agree with her asses...

I think that GPs are some of the most trusted people in our communities, and that the relationshi...

I apologise if I did not make my point very well. I was suggesting not that there had been a brea...

Again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I am sure we are going to hear more fr...

rose—

It is very good of the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) to drop in on us. I know he w...

Mr Speaker, I take your rap across the knuckles in the spirit in which it was intended. I apologi...

As the right hon. Gentleman was not here at the time, he will not know that I moved a manuscript ...

I was told a long time ago that it is important in certain circumstances in life to be careful wi...

The right hon. Gentleman is making an important point about why the programme has to succeed. Giv...

The right hon. Gentleman is 100% right. That is precisely what the care.data programme is designe...

My right hon. Friend is rightly concentrating on the benefits of the programme. Sharing large dat...

First, we must concentrate the rationale for the programme on to patients. Looking back at how NH...

The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) has just mentioned the need to re...

I am not going to comment on whether the free text data should or should not be part of the syste...

My right hon. Friend made the point that the programme is for the benefit of patients. Does he ag...

My hon. Friend is right, as she always is on these issues. This is about improving the care that ...

It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), my hon. Friend the Mem...

My hon. Friend is making a good speech and laying out the issues clearly—he is talking about the ...

Absolutely. That is one of the real issues. As we have heard from Members on both sides of the Ho...

My hon. Friend is making important points and I hope that the Minister is taking note of them. Do...

I absolutely share those concerns. We did not hear anything last night that reassured anybody who...

I thank hon. Members for the many comments and pertinent points made during the debate, both last...

We all want to see better, more integrated care, so why did Ministers not keep a closer eye on th...

It was very clear, as NHS England has acknowledged, that the communication exercise put forward w...

Does the Minister accept any responsibility for this near disastrous collapse of the care.data sc...

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, under the 2012 Act, NHS England has responsibility for much ...

Will the Minister confirm that there is no way that free text will be uploaded, either now or in ...

As things stand at the moment, free text is not going to be used. That is the reassurance given b...

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I will deal first with the points made by the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara K...

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will he clarify the point raised by the hon. Member...

Of course strict criteria are in place under the 2012 Act about the use of data where a patient c...

The Minister referred to my manuscript amendment on parliamentary oversight of the actions of the...

As a Member of the previous Government, it is a pity that the hon. Lady did not take these issues...

rose—

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not give way. I have only two minutes left, and I want ...

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 16—Powers of local com...

I wish to speak to new clause 6, which stands in my name and those of hon. and right hon. Members...

The hon. Gentleman is making well-informed comments about the whole issue we face. He says that t...

Order. Ms Walley, in fairness, interventions must be very short.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for playing an extremely ...

I rise to speak to my amendment 30. When the coalition came to office, it made a series of grand ...

If the right hon. Gentleman is so concerned about issues of financial failure, why did the Health...

The Minister anticipates me—he has hit the nail on the head. It was a different vehicle. It was a...

rose—

rose—

I give way to the hon. Lady.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that as well as being profoundly undemocratic, the measure is...

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The measure risks damaging, rather than building, public trust...

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend. He should also pay tribute to the efforts of all the ...

My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. The community came forward, with clinicians st...

The Save Lewisham Hospital campaign was terrifically important, but there was also a protection w...

I agree with my hon. Friend. That is the point that the Minister revealed in his intervention. Th...

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rose—

I give way to the Chairman of the Health Committee.

I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect on what he has just said. Does he really believe that w...

This is where the right hon. Gentleman and I differ. I believe that we need to begin by asking wh...

The shadow Secretary of State is rewriting history. Under the TSA clause written by the Labour Go...

The Minister makes my point again. The powers dealt only with financial failure. That is the poin...

rose—

rose—

I give way to my hon. Friend.

My right hon. Friend says that clause 119 is the result of defeat in the courts. That is true. Ho...

That is why I say, “Thank God for the people of Lewisham.” The Government may well have got away ...

As a constituency MP, I have seen hospitals that are well supported by their community, and which...

Before the hon. Gentleman makes that argument, I suggest that he speaks to the people of Lewisham...

We often debate this matter in the House and we all agree in principle with the concept of reconf...

The hon. Gentleman makes that argument as if there were no changes to hospitals under the previou...

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

In a moment.

The previous Government made changes to stroke services in London just before ...

My right hon. Friend has made his point powerfully. I was going to ask him for an example of how ...

The difficult thing for me is that when I think back to some of the processes I was involved with...

Let me give my right hon. Friend another example. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham We...

Government Members would do well to listen to my right hon. Friend because she followed that whol...

My right hon. Friend says that the propositions were made by management consultants. He will be a...

I am not sure there is much I can add to that. Why are management consultants better placed—my ri...

It is always dangerous to wander into territory that is not necessarily our own, but what happens...

I speak to my counterpart in the Scottish Parliament on a regular basis, and we are clear that th...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

I will make some progress but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman before the end of my speech.<...

The right hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. He makes the point that, during hi...

Is the Minister listening to the debate and to what I am saying? I have explained to him carefull...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

I will give way one final time, and then I will complete my remarks.

For clarity, the shadow Secretary of State is talking about in extremis and financial failures. W...

I will come on to that point, but the CQC had existing powers on care failure, and powers to move...

rose—

I will give way one final time, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will take on board the point that p...

I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman and I have listened extremely carefully to what he...

I am saying to the hon. Gentleman that the previous Government had a process at the end of which ...

I have left instructions for my body to be left to Oxford university medical school, partly becau...

I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend on that now, before my closing remarks. The right hon. Membe...

I do find that reassuring, but I have a final question that I hope my hon. Friend will address wh...

I agree strongly with the sentiment expressed by the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) tha...

If the hon. Gentleman believes that it is important that local people are listened to, would he c...

The short answer is no, I do not wish to comment.

Lewisham was stitched up from day one. In...

May I just clarify my concern that administrators can reach out, far beyond where we initially th...

I accept absolutely the hon. Gentleman’s point. The wording of the clause is such that the powers...

rose—

I give way to the gallant hon. Gentleman.

I thank the equally gallant hon. Gentleman and a neighbouring Member of Parliament. I, too, have ...

The hon. Gentleman is right. We have discussed the impact of this on our constituents many times....

I want to ensure that my hon. Friend does not end this part of his speech without reminding the H...

It is with some trepidation that I must disagree with my right hon. Friend. In fact, the figure w...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. More communities could face this threat, but is not the point...

My right hon. Friend is right; that is precisely the point and that is precisely what this Govern...

I start by acknowledging the receipt of a petition handed to me yesterday, containing 159,000 sig...

Will the right hon. Gentleman refresh my memory? Is that the same pressure group that a few years...

That was a lot of accusations and I will leave 38 Degrees to answer for itself. All I wanted to d...

What worries me is the trigger for the process. What level of debt would have to be achieved in o...

The hon. Gentleman anticipates my next point. It is far from clear how the judgment should be mad...

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that trust special administrators coming in and making recomm...

I think the hon. Lady will find some sympathy for that view.

Local commissioners and trusts...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

If I may develop my point, I shall be happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

The fi...

The right hon. Gentleman has made an outstanding contribution to proceedings over the past couple...

I am grateful for that intervention. As I develop my argument, I think the right hon. Gentleman w...

rose—

I give way finally to the hon. Lady.

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. Will he explain to me whether, if his new clause had b...

What I am saying is that in a situation where trusts that are not themselves in special administr...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Forgive me, but I will not give way. I want to ensure that others have a chance to debate the cla...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

I will conclude, because I want to ensure that there is time for other people to speak. I am sure...

I want to do two things in my contribution: first, to speak in support of amendment 30, which wou...

In our case, we had a public meeting where about 400 people were outside trying to get into a mee...

The experiences in Stafford and in Lewisham have probably been very similar. Multiple public meet...

Let me place it on the record that, as far as I am aware, there have been no discussions involvin...

That is useful. I am sure that Members are grateful to hear that from the Minister, but we know t...

The hon. Lady is helpfully setting out her concerns and her support for the new clause. The first...

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer, but I am still not clear whether the n...

That is the intention, so the new clause has been drafted to have that effect. We will hear short...

I am sorry to be down in the detail of the new clause, but I think that it is very important, not...

I want briefly to explain why I intend to support clause 119 in the Lobby this evening and to say...

I hold the Chairman of the Select Committee in high regard for his expertise. Let me point out, t...

Saying that a trust is in deficit is not the same as saying that it is heading into administratio...

Rather than looking at administrators and what can be done in the event of a disaster, let us loo...

I do not always agree with every word my hon. Friend says, but I agree with everything he said in...

I want to make a few points in support of amendment 30, which would delete clause 119 on the basi...

As a fellow member of the Health and Social Care Bill Committee, does my hon. Friend remember tha...

I do remember those debates, some of which were very long and acrimonious. I still have the scars...

Given that clause 119 is a dramatic extension of the Secretary of State’s powers, as my hon. Frie...

I am absolutely amazed. I share my right hon. Friend’s incredulity that the Secretary of State is...

I have listened with quiet astonishment as Opposition Members have suggested that the NHS previou...

I am happy to give my hon. Friend that reassurance. We believe in locally led commissioning and i...

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that reassurance because in my constituency there is ...

It will come as no surprise that I support the proposal to remove clause 119 from the Bill. Of al...

My hon. Friend is right when she says that the Secretary of State wants the power to privatise—I ...

Order. With the hon. Gentleman facing that way I could not hear a word he had to say. I am sure i...

I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that the changes the Government want to make are in order to ...

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.

TSAs can consider the impact on neighbouring au...

I take the hon. Lady’s general point and understand why she is making it, but yesterday, we debat...

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not believe it applies to clause 119.

My co...

I shall make a short contribution on clause 119. I agree with the principle behind the clause and...

I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned tirelessly for her local trust and I can reassure her t...

One of the big successes is the creation of local commissioners. In my patch, Jonathan Wells has ...

I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss amendment 30 and new clause 16. I realise that it wi...

To be clear, I think these consultations are a fiction and sham that do not make any difference t...

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention and I understand where he is coming from. Certain...

In Swanage, we too had a consultation that was a disaster. It was binned, thank God, but another ...

And the answer is not just with consultations. The issue facing us today, and why I cannot suppor...

Where is the limit? That is what worries me. It is like pouring water on a tile—one cannot stop i...

Yes, indeed. Again, I am trying to be as balanced as I can. I recognise that no single institutio...

Does my hon. Friend accept that there are some extremely important issues that cannot be resolved...

Indeed. My hon. Friend makes his point very well and I bow to his superior judgment.

I am a...

I listened with great interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) but ...

Order. I think I need to help the hon. Gentleman. As he knows, we are dealing with the new clause...

I shall simply say this, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will vote in the Lobbies with the Government tonigh...

I apologise for arriving so late, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have been stuck in a meeting.

Let me...

In my experience, cottage hospitals are the gold standard of the national health service, and sho...

I entirely agree. There are still members of the community who, like me, deeply regret the fact t...

Not for the first time, I find myself gently agreeing with the hon. Gentleman. I think that he ha...

I will show the hon. Gentleman a few books about council socialism and the socialism of the grass...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). He said at ...

The right hon. Gentleman knows I have huge regard for him and I do not disagree that change needs...

I am grateful to my right hon.—or, rather, the right hon. Gentleman; I nearly made a Freudian sli...

My right hon. Friend is making the key point in this debate. He is describing a locally rooted, c...

As always, my right hon. Friend anticipates what I am about to say and says it in a far more stra...

When this was tested in the High Court, the judge said that the Government were seeking to use th...

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman, because I have the freedom of the Back Benches, is that I...

It is wrong. The right hon. Gentleman will know that when he arrived at the Department of Health ...

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this is a very important debate. I have the benefit of...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

No. I am about to conclude as I know the winding-up speeches have to begin.

In conclusion, ...

I thank all my hon. Friends and other hon. Members for their contributions to this important deba...

Let me make the Minister aware of a real and live example: the decision of Bedford and Milton Key...

I can assure my hon. Friend absolutely that these are locally driven reviews of clinical services...

With 11 areas identified as having challenges to the health economy, will the Minister give reass...

That is absolutely the case. It is absolutely wrong to conflate the fact—as Opposition Members ar...

The Minister was saying that all other measures should be explored first, in particular co-operat...

As part of our changes in the wake of the Mid Staffordshire inquiry—changes the right hon. Gentle...

Does the Minister recognise that the reason why there is concern about clause 119—with due respec...

My hon. Friend makes a good point, which has been made by Government Members throughout this deba...

rose—

Let me make a little progress, because I have been generous in giving way.

Let us consider ...

I think I know the answer to this, but I think that the opposite has been said so many times in t...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right in what he says. These are decisions, under the legislation th...

Will the Minister give way?

I do need to make some progress, as I have been generous in giving way. If hon. Members will let ...

rose—

rose—

I may give way in a few moments, but I need to make a bit of progress. The clause would extend th...

rose—

I will take the shadow Secretary of State in preference to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame...

The Minister is being generous. He has made the argument all afternoon that he is doing what I wa...

Quite frankly, it was because the right hon. Gentleman’s legislation was not worded effectively e...

Order. The right hon. Gentleman was listened to with courtesy. The same courtesy must be shown to...

I have repeatedly read out supporting evidence from the previous Government and from the impact a...

Will the Minister give way?

The right hon. Gentleman also suggested—

Is he deaf?

Order. The Minister’s state of health is not a matter to be dealt with from a sedentary position....

I must make progress. I want to address the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Su...

rose—

I will give way to the former Secretary of State in one moment, but I would like to make some pro...

My disquiet stems from the fact that when the TSA was put into South London Healthcare NHS Trust ...

The spirit of the previous Government’s legislation was to look at the wider health economy when ...

I am grateful to the Minister for some of the clarifications he has given so far. When he conclud...

I am happy to give my right hon. Friend that assurance. It will be for him to lead the review, an...

Order. If hon. Members across the Chamber wish to have private conversations, they should leave. ...

It would take outside the administration process and the timetable recommendations that affect ot...

I think I have heard the Minister tell us that there will be an equivalency between commissioners...

I am very pleased that my right hon. Friend is reassured. I pay tribute to the tremendous work th...

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The Bill will bring about the most...

I had the great privilege to serve in Committee, during which the Minister of State, Department o...

I thank my hon. Friend for her work in Committee. That is an aspiration that we all share, and so...

I realise that the Secretary of State was not in office when the TSA process was started in the S...

Let me first tell the hon. Gentleman that the TSA did not recommend the closure of the A and E un...

Following the concessions announced by the Under-Secretary in the previous debate, do I understan...

Let me clarify; we want to listen to the consultation that will be led by my right hon. Friend th...

I begin by thanking my shadow team, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Leicester West (...

The right hon. Gentleman expresses concern about the care crisis. Why did he abstain in yesterday...

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is in a very strong position to talk about Members’ ...

The right hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that the Bill removed care from some people by restric...

If the Minister gave councils budgets that enabled them to be more generous, they might have a ch...

I understand that the Minister is to visit Salford tomorrow. Perhaps he would like to talk to Sal...

My hon. Friend’s intervention brings me to my second reason for thinking that the Bill is not wha...

indicated assent.

The Secretary of State says yes, but I am afraid that it will not. The £72,000 cap is based on a ...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will, but I think that the Minister should take account of that point, because it is quite impo...

The right hon. Gentleman says that he would like the eligibility criteria to be more generous. Is...

I am not writing a budget at the Dispatch Box this evening. I will stand by our record of giving ...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

No I will not, as the hon. Gentleman has not been here all afternoon.

The third area is the...

rose—

We have never had a proper answer to that. I hope we are about to get one.

Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman what this Bill does: it introduces the proper expert-led ins...

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question. There was a responsibility on the CQC to ...

The shadow Secretary of State is bandying around some big words like “arrogant” so will he now sh...

We took action to address care standards in the NHS. The right hon. Gentleman is trying to politi...

rose—

Order. I was going to call the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), as she had applied to speak...

indicated assent.

I call Dr Sarah Wollaston.

6.51 pm

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

I congratulate the Secretary of State on this groundbreaking Bill. I...

I want to make one brief point. Care in our society is delivered largely by friends and family, f...

rose—

Order. Hon. Members will, I know, be sympathetic to each other. Everyone will try to help other c...

I shall make two brief points, which I think are the two things for which the Bill will be rememb...

I shall be brief. Throughout the passage of the Bill, I have felt that there is considerable cons...

The Bill deserves a Third Reading because it replaces 60 years of piecemeal, dog’s breakfast legi...