UK Parliament / Open data

Pensions Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 29 October 2013, in the House of Commons, led by Steve Webb.
Programme motion (No. 2) on proceedings on consideration. Report stage. New clause 1. Agreed to on question, amendment negatived on division (232 to 294). New clause 11, negatived on division (218 to 305). New Schedule 1 and New Clauses 2 and 4, agreed to on question. Clauses 24, 32, 46, 48 and Schedules 1, 12, 14-16 and 18, amendments made. New Clause 5, negatived on question. New Clause 8, negatived on division (231 to 295). Clause 24, amendment negatived on division (230 to 290). Third reading, agreed to on question. Bill passed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
569 cc765-872 
Session
2013-14
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Pensions Bill 2013-14. As amended in Committee.
Thursday, 11 July 2013
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Steve Webb | 569 c766 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

John Bercow | 569 cc766-9 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment (a) to Government new c...


Show all contributions (154)
Steve Webb | 569 cc769-775 (Link to this contribution)

This group of amendments contains a long list of disparate topics. To give the House a feel for w...

David Mowat | 569 c775 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister very much for the announcement that he will consider a 0.75% cap in the cons...

Steve Webb | 569 cc775-6 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right. The consultation document discusses what should be included in the charg...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c776 (Link to this contribution)

If that is the case for Australia—and I looked very closely at Ms Reynolds’ comments—why are the ...

Steve Webb | 569 cc776-7 (Link to this contribution)

I do not see any incompatibility. The specific finding in Australia that independent trustees are...

Caroline Lucas | 569 c777 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for his positive comments. I take the point that the pension aspect...

Steve Webb | 569 cc777-8 (Link to this contribution)

In someone else’s legislation—[Laughter.] Just between ourselves, I encourage the hon. Lady to ke...

Steve Webb | 569 cc778-9 (Link to this contribution)

Apparently he is searching for silver bullets. In any case, we are already seeing consolidation. ...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 569 c779 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that to enable privatisations to go ahead—we are not just talk...

Steve Webb | 569 c780 (Link to this contribution)

Just to be clear, new clause 7 makes a specific suggestion regarding a private sector employer go...

David Mowat | 569 c780 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to take my hon. Friend back to annuities, but I have been reflecting on his remarks. I...

Steve Webb | 569 c780 (Link to this contribution)

Although the ABI code, for example, no longer requires the providers to send the application form...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 569 c780 (Link to this contribution)

I have been contacted by a number of constituents who are in difficulties because of the current ...

Steve Webb | 569 cc780-1 (Link to this contribution)

My particular responsibility is automatic enrolment. We are about to put 10 million people into m...

Anne Begg | 569 c781 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister explain what the position will be with regard to the cap for those who are in t...

Steve Webb | 569 c781 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Chair of the Select Committee. As she knows, the PPF scheme is funded by the...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc781-2 (Link to this contribution)

I have listened closely to the Minister. When one listens to him, particularly on pension charges...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc782-5 (Link to this contribution)

That is a lesson in not posing a rhetorical question. Whatever my hon. Friend believes, I do not ...

Debbie Abrahams | 569 c785 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I recognise that the Minister is sincere in his int...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc785-6 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for her shrewd intervention.

The Minister has been slow to understan...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc786-8 (Link to this contribution)

It seems that he is, and that is fair enough. I myself am not. Musicals are not my thing. He quot...

Steve Webb | 569 c788 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful contribution, but what he seems to be saying is that if...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc788-9 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for that thoughtful intervention. I am coming on to the issue of the charge ...

David Mowat | 569 c789 (Link to this contribution)

I have just come back into the Chamber, but since the hon. Gentleman mentions the 40 Tory Members...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c789 (Link to this contribution)

My letter has not had the desired effect. I thought that Madam Deputy Speaker called me “Greg Mul...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 569 c790 (Link to this contribution)

I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. That was my mistake. Perhaps the hon. Member for Leeds North W...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c790 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not sure whether I had misheard or whether the hon. Member...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 569 c790 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad that my hon. Friend is speaking up for savers. He is raising issues that have already b...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc790-2 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. That was beautifully pronounced, which is what I would expect fr...

Steve Webb | 569 c791 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman’s central thesis seems to be that he should claim credit for Labour’s 2008 aut...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc791-4 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister took a similar approach when he talked about stakeholders. I shall say more about th...

Andrew Griffiths | 569 c794 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman talks about policy mistakes of the Thatcher Government and about previous Gove...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc794-5 (Link to this contribution)

I assume the hon. Gentleman is referring to the decision to remove the dividend—[Interruption.] I...

Steve Webb | 569 c795 (Link to this contribution)

A few minutes ago, the hon. Gentleman rebuked me for saying that engagement was important, becaus...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc795-7 (Link to this contribution)

That is not what I was saying, and I will explain why. I am not surprised by the Minister’s respo...

Brian H Donohoe | 569 c797 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend make a distinction between a scheme with trustees and one under which the mem...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c797 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The logic of moving to a system in which every scheme has...

David Mowat | 569 c797 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, and it seems to me that all his points should be...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc797-8 (Link to this contribution)

I do not disagree with any of that, apart from the fact that the chance to take the necessary ste...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 569 c798 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is addressing a great many issues in this group of cl...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c798 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you for that wise advice, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was somewhat sidetracked by the excellent...

Richard Graham | 569 cc798-9 (Link to this contribution)

This is the first time I have made a speech while you have been in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speake...

Brian H Donohoe | 569 c799 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman also consider that a pension pot is a deferred income and should be treat...

Richard Graham | 569 cc799-801 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right in the sense that all savings are ultimately deferred income. If he i...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c801 (Link to this contribution)

There is a joke in that somewhere, but I will not go there. I was just struck that the hon. Gentl...

Richard Graham | 569 cc801-2 (Link to this contribution)

The shadow Minister must learn to be more precise in what he says. His letter referred to

‘...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c802 (Link to this contribution)

This is all very curious, because the front cover of the document refers to “40 Policy Ideas from...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 569 c802 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We are straying somewhat from the amendments and new clauses before us. If there is a diff...

Richard Graham | 569 cc802-3 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Before the shadow Minister intervened, I had b...

Steve Webb | 569 c803 (Link to this contribution)

It might benefit the House to know that the measure in the Bill to which my hon. Friend refers is...

Richard Graham | 569 c803 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. If I understand it correctly, the employer ...

Richard Graham | 569 c803 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad to see the Minister nodding on that.

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 569 c803 (Link to this contribution)

Like the hon. Gentleman, I have nuclear power stations in my constituency—Hunterston A, which is ...

Richard Graham | 569 cc803-4 (Link to this contribution)

That is an interesting point. The answer is yes, but they are not in the hundreds. They come in t...

Caroline Lucas | 569 cc804-7 (Link to this contribution)

I have tabled new clause 12 and amendments 54 and 55 in order to highlight the need for the Depar...

Sheila Gilmore | 569 cc806-9 (Link to this contribution)

I want to speak on Opposition new clause 11 on annuities. The scandal of annuities was widespread...

Greg Mulholland | 569 cc809-810 (Link to this contribution)

I will keep my remarks brief. Other Members wish to speak to amendments, so I will ensure I give ...

Greg Mulholland | 569 c810 (Link to this contribution)

I will of course allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene. Perhaps he will acknowledge that improvem...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c810 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has referred to me as being among “Les Misérables”. Is he aware that I am Scot...

Greg Mulholland | 569 c810 (Link to this contribution)

I had the great pleasure of living in Scotland for three years—two years in Glasgow. When I moved...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c810 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I suggest we move on to new clause 1 at some point.

Greg Mulholland | 569 cc810-1 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I remind the House what the improvements to auto-enrolment will...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 569 cc811-3 (Link to this contribution)

In the short time available to me, I wish to focus on the issue of protected persons, which was r...

John McDonnell | 569 cc813-4 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) has addressed the spirit of n...

Steve Webb | 569 c814 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is obviously very knowledgeable about the history of the matter. Can he point ...

John McDonnell | 569 cc815-7 (Link to this contribution)

Let me deal with that. Incidents such as insolvency are often not predicted by Government. So wha...

Steve Webb | 569 cc817-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the chance to respond to the debate. I hope the House will forgive me if I focu...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c818 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way to me again: he is being very generous with his time. Is he n...

Steve Webb | 569 cc818-820 (Link to this contribution)

That was powerfully put, if I may say so. However, the hon. Gentleman is trying to portray a work...

Steve Webb | 569 c820 (Link to this contribution)

I will certainly give way to the hon. Gentleman, but will he just clarify this? He mentioned in h...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c820 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot respond at length as this is an intervention, but the Minister continues not to understa...

Steve Webb | 569 c820 (Link to this contribution)

I would love to say that clarified matters. Let me put this challenge to the hon. Gentleman. He s...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c820 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister says he wants to take great action through a cap on charges, but after

Steve Webb | 569 c821 (Link to this contribution)

When the hon. Gentleman says we will publish that at some point in the future and he knows we are...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c821 (Link to this contribution)

Again, the Minister says he has a power but does not tell us how he is going to use it; that is c...

Steve Webb | 569 cc821-2 (Link to this contribution)

I thought that was what I just said. Let me be clear: we want to get this thing going. The hon. G...

John McDonnell | 569 c822 (Link to this contribution)

I have a lot of time for the hon. Gentleman, but I find that beneath him. He knows that I have be...

Steve Webb | 569 c822 (Link to this contribution)

I know that the hon. Gentleman has taken a particular interest over time in this industry. My poi...

John McDonnell | 569 c822 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. There comes a time when accuracy is important in this Hou...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure that nobody would deliberately mislead this House—let us clear that one up. That is not...

Steve Webb | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. That was not a correction, because what I said...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

I did not say that. I also said that the first point was not a point of order, and neither is the...

Steve Webb | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

Let me reiterate: Jarvis and the other firms paid the pension protection fund levy.

John McDonnell | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

That is irrelevant—absolutely irrelevant.

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I understand that tensions are running high, but we will have an orderly debate.

Steve Webb | 569 c823 (Link to this contribution)

Jarvis, as an employer, was paying an insurance policy. It was paying into a fund so that if it b...

Steve Webb | 569 cc823-4 (Link to this contribution)

Other people who work for private firms get a payout according to how the pension protection fund...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c824 (Link to this contribution)

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

Steve Webb | 569 c838 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

John Bercow | 569 c838 (Link to this contribution)

With this we will debate the following:

Government new clause 4—Preserving indefinite statu...

Steve Webb | 569 cc838-9 (Link to this contribution)

Unlike the debate on the previous group, the debate on this short group need not detain us too lo...

Sheila Gilmore | 569 c839 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

John Bercow | 569 c840 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 6—State pension entitl...

Sheila Gilmore | 569 cc840-2 (Link to this contribution)

One of the issues that has come up in the course of all the debate about the single-tier pension ...

John Redwood | 569 c842 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Lady have any idea how much money, on average, these ladies might be losing?

Sheila Gilmore | 569 c842 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know off the top of my head, which is why I am asking for a review. We might be talking ...

Peter Bottomley | 569 cc842-4 (Link to this contribution)

I hope the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) will forgive me if I do not follow her...

John Redwood | 569 c843 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend know whether the requirement to uprate in the European Union countries is a E...

Peter Bottomley | 569 cc843-5 (Link to this contribution)

The Government chose and Parliament endorsed that we would have free movement of people and of be...

Roger Gale | 569 c845 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has already paid tribute to the leaders of the campaign in Canada and Australia. J...

Peter Bottomley | 569 cc845-6 (Link to this contribution)

I find that shaming.

One of the reasons to be active in public service is to identify injus...

Caroline Lucas | 569 cc846-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), who has spoken pa...

Roger Gale | 569 c847 (Link to this contribution)

Jim Tilley’s old friend, the British widow living in Australia on a frozen pension of less than £...

John McDonnell | 569 cc847-9 (Link to this contribution)

I wholeheartedly support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bot...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c849 (Link to this contribution)

I want to speak in particular to our new clause 8 and amendment 37. We are now discussing the pro...

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 569 c849 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the difference is that these privatisations were hugely contentiou...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc849-850 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I agree that there is a specific set of circumstanc...

Steve Webb | 569 c850 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman’s new clause 8 calls for a review. Obviously, having a review is not the same ...

Gregg McClymont | 569 c850 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly think the Minister should undertake a review.

The perception I am talking about...

Julie Hilling | 569 c850 (Link to this contribution)

Before my hon. Friend moves on, I wonder whether he would be interested to hear the Minister’s re...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc850-1 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that powerful intervention. There has been an issue of this Government...

Anne Begg | 569 c851 (Link to this contribution)

These amendments can all be categorised as trying to do something for those who have lost out as ...

Greg Mulholland | 569 c851 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and for the contribution that her Committee continues to mak...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c851 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We need short interventions.

Anne Begg | 569 c852 (Link to this contribution)

I think that may have been the problem with this Government and with the previous Government. Any...

Hywel Williams | 569 c852 (Link to this contribution)

Let me say first of all that I support amendment 1, which I was very glad to put my name to.

<...
Steve Webb | 569 cc852-3 (Link to this contribution)

In that short time we covered a wide range of issues, and in the 10 minutes or so remaining, I sh...

Sheila Gilmore | 569 c853 (Link to this contribution)

There is an acceptance that for most people it would be unusual for that circumstance to arise, b...

Steve Webb | 569 cc853-4 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. The hon. Lady is right. Some women are in that position, but a significant proportion of ...

Peter Bottomley | 569 c854 (Link to this contribution)

Did not the Minister’s last point—that we do not want to continue the kind of discrimination that...

Steve Webb | 569 c854 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend, as ever, is sharp on these matters. Amendment 1, which stands in his name and tha...

Baroness Hoey | 569 c854 (Link to this contribution)

As another signatory to amendment 1, I am disappointed by the Prime Minister’s response. Will the...

Steve Webb | 569 cc854-5 (Link to this contribution)

I was asked about the issue when I appeared before the Select Committee, and I said that I sympat...

Caroline Lucas | 569 c855 (Link to this contribution)

I take the Minister’s point, but my point is that it should be for that woman to decide. Yes, the...

Steve Webb | 569 c855 (Link to this contribution)

In addition to the issue of people who will subsequently be bereaved is that of people who will f...

Peter Bottomley | 569 c855 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Am I right in saying that, under the procedure of the Hou...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 cc855-6 (Link to this contribution)

I am not calling it. Unfortunately, that is the procedure of the House, as the hon. Gentleman wel...

Steve Webb | 569 cc866-7 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

One of the problems on Report is t...

Martin Horwood | 569 c867 (Link to this contribution)

Like my hon. Friend, I welcome the Bill, which is an important, historic and long-overdue change ...

Lindsay Hoyle | 569 c867 (Link to this contribution)

Order. This is meant to be an intervention, not a speech. It is unfair on the other Members waiti...

Steve Webb | 569 c867 (Link to this contribution)

The charity in my hon. Friend’s constituency, Winston’s Wish, was referred to earlier by the hon....

Lady Hermon | 569 c868 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister will know that as the Bill is drafted, and moving towards its final phase in the Hou...

Steve Webb | 569 c868 (Link to this contribution)

I would be happy to provide the hon. Lady with the clarification she seeks, either while I am sti...

Julian Sturdy | 569 c868 (Link to this contribution)

Like the Minister, I support the Bill, but I have constituents concerned about the 35-year rule, ...

Steve Webb | 569 c868 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend raises an issue that has caused a little confusion, but I can reassure him that al...

Julie Hilling | 569 c869 (Link to this contribution)

Is the Minister saying that those people who fall short of the 35-year rule will receive their £1...

Steve Webb | 569 c869 (Link to this contribution)

To be clear, someone with 30 years and no SERPS under the current system gets 30 30ths of £110, a...

Gregg McClymont | 569 cc869-870 (Link to this contribution)

When the Minister first came to the House in January with his statement on the Government’s plans...

Julie Hilling | 569 cc870-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for this opportunity to speak briefly in the debate. I want to speak up on behalf o...

Steve Webb | 569 c871 (Link to this contribution)

In the event that the record might suggest that the hon. Lady’s constituent will be worse off, I ...

Julie Hilling | 569 cc871-2 (Link to this contribution)

My understanding is that that is not the only change: my constituent will not be able to access £...

Martin Horwood | 569 c872 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Lady explain why the triple lock made things worse for women?

Julie Hilling | 569 c872 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Of course the triple lock affects everybody; it ...

Legislation
Pensions Bill 2013-14
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