This is a notable debate for a number of reasons, but one is that we have not heard from either the Minister or the official Opposition spokesman, yet we understand that the development of a network of charging points for electric vehicles is a key policy of both the Government and the Opposition. The way of implementing such a policy in London is what we have been discussing for the past couple of hours. I find it extraordinary, if not disturbing, that we have not heard from the Minister in response to the genuine questions raised during the debate.
It is invidious to make contrasts but I am going to do so. The way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East has dealt with the debate is first class. The whole purpose of scrutiny in the House is for questions to be asked and answers to be given, and for that to be done in a civilised way. It may well be that people have misunderstood the meaning of the Bill. They may have made nonsense of an amendment, but the only way of testing that process is through a civilized exchange across the Floor of the House.
My hon. Friend has shown during today’s proceedings and in previous discussion of the Bill that if the Government are interested in bringing forward Ministers who are good at responding to debates, taking seriously the process of scrutiny and answering the questions, my hon. Friend is a model Minister in waiting. He has shown that he grasps the whole purpose of our Parliament, which is to scrutinise the Executive, and the purpose of the Executive is to respond to that scrutiny.
Having come in for a bit of stick tonight in relation to some of the amendments in the group, I remind the House that it is a long-standing convention that if one tables an amendment and it encounters quite a lot of opposition, one then downgrades one’s amendment by saying, “Well, after all, it is only a probing amendment.” By force of argument, not least from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, and from my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley and for Bury North, I have been forced to downgrade my lead amendment to a probing amendment. However, it has been very effective in probing and getting out of the promoters what they have in mind and why that amendment is ill-conceived, like many of the others that go with it. Had the Minister responded, I might well have been pushed back into a more aggressive mode and become a little more stubborn.
10.15 pm
To sum up the debate, leaving aside those amendments that were clearly probing, there is still disagreement between my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East
and the three of us who have spoken from the Back Benches in relation to amendment 37, which relates to clause 18, and amendment 40, which relates to clause 19. He opposes amendment 37 on the basis that it would be demanding to expect local authorities to deal with potentially 25,000 planning applications, as we are talking about 25,000 charging points across London, and I conceded that that is correct.
On the other hand, I envisage enormous difficulties if the 25,000 charging points are installed in places where local residents do not want them to be. They are also a potential nuisance, because we do not yet know how much noise they will generate. Will they be as loud as a fridge freezer at night, or louder? We do not know how much of a nuisance vehicles coming to charging points will be, or how long the process will take. When there is a shortage of charging points, will there be queues of vehicles waiting to use them, and might that obstruct the streets? There are many big issues that could affect London residents.
Although clause 18 refers to consulting, it makes no reference to meaningful consultation or to local authorities having to listen to the views of residents. Without the wording being changed, all we can say is that if local authorities do not listen to the views of their residents on this, the whole means of bringing forward charging points to facilitate the expansion of electric vehicles in London will be inhibited and could become very unpopular. That is one of the concerns referred to during the debate. As I recall, clause 18 also refers to consent having to be obtained from Network Rail and London Underground, which is a result of the petitions that those organisations put in against the Bill. It is a pity that residents did not petition, as they might have been able to obtain a similar concession.
Amendment 40 would delete clause 19. If we are talking about creating new criminal offences, we need to be very clear that they are needed. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, in defending the Bill’s position, did his valiant best. He referred to the problem that many local authorities already have with theft from parking meters, but he did not suggest that that should be subject to a separate offence, because it is already covered by the Theft Act. He also said that he did not believe that the issue of interfering with a charging apparatus could be ignored when drafting a Bill such as this. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North made clear, that would probably be an offence of criminal damage. Do we need a new criminal offence under clause 19? The wording of the clause would not even cover interference, as it specifically refers to the use of
“charging apparatus in contravention of a sign displayed”.
We do not yet know, because the technology and designs are still being developed, whether the charging apparatus will be the kind into which an electric kettle can be plugged—a person might be able to have their tea. Surely, however, it is sensible to legislate on the basis that there is already a clear offence of theft of electricity. Anybody who uses the apparatus without authority will be stealing the electricity. That is clear. If they interfere with or vandalise the charging apparatus, they will be guilty of criminal damage. There is no need for the offence in clause 19; it would just litter the statute book, and we do not want to create more criminal offences.
We then come to the additional point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, who said that clause 19(2) is badly drafted and makes it look as though we were dealing with the wrong person from whom permission would need to be obtained to establish a defence. That is a subsidiary argument against clause 19.