UK Parliament / Open data

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 15 April 2013, in the House of Commons, led by David Gauke and Sajid Javid. The answering members were Catherine McKinnell and Chris Leslie.
Second reading debate agreed to on division (321 votes to 249). Motion that Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred Divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to the Finance (No. 2) Bill (Carry-Over). Agreed to on question. Programme motion agreed to on question. Carry-over motion agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
561 cc53-140 
Session
2012-13
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Second reading
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Finance (No. 2) Bill 2012-13
Monday, 25 March 2013
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
David Gauke | 561 c54 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. It is a great pleasure to present this ye...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 c54 (Link to this contribution)

On the issue of avoidance and evasion, the press reported over the weekend that Britain and its d...


Show all contributions (186)
David Gauke | 561 c54 (Link to this contribution)

As I was trying to make clear a moment ago, I will turn to the subject of evasion and avoidance l...

John Redwood | 561 c54 (Link to this contribution)

The Labour Government set capital gains tax at 18%, which is somewhere near the revenue-maximisin...

David Gauke | 561 cc54-5 (Link to this contribution)

One has to look at the tax system as a whole, including capital gains tax, and I am not sure that...

Sheila Gilmore | 561 c55 (Link to this contribution)

How can the Minister square the statement he has just made with the fact that all his predictions...

David Gauke | 561 c55 (Link to this contribution)

Borrowing is down by a third from the position it was in when we came into office—that is the rea...

Chris Leslie | 561 c55 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know whether the Minister did not get the memo, but the Office for Budget Responsibility...

David Gauke | 561 c55 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that borrowing levels are higher than predicted by the OBR thr...

David Gauke | 561 c55 (Link to this contribution)

The reality is that, had we pursued the policies the Opposition advocated at the last general ele...

Chris Leslie | 561 c55 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way so generously, but I just want him to answer my question. He ...

David Gauke | 561 c56 (Link to this contribution)

That is not actually what the OBR numbers at the last Budget showed, but clearly we are faced wit...

William Bain | 561 c56 (Link to this contribution)

If the Finance Bill is such a success in stimulating additional growth, will the Exchequer Secret...

David Gauke | 561 c56 (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Gentleman looks through the OBR’s analysis, he will see its explanation for growth be...

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 561 c56 (Link to this contribution)

In passing, may I say how hypocritical it is of Opposition Members to say what they have been say...

David Gauke | 561 c56 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to do what we can to ensure access to finance for...

Mark Field | 561 cc56-7 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate that the Minister has to deal with an incredibly difficult situation that is not mad...

David Gauke | 561 c57 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. It is right to say that exporting is important. ...

Geraint Davies | 561 c57 (Link to this contribution)

Given that before and after the Budget the corporation tax rate in France was 33%, while in Germa...

David Gauke | 561 cc57-8 (Link to this contribution)

I hope the reduction to 20% will have all-party support, but I am sorry if it does not. The advan...

John Redwood | 561 c58 (Link to this contribution)

I strongly support the corporation tax move, which will be extremely helpful to Britain’s competi...

David Gauke | 561 c58 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes a valuable point. This underlines the fact that the Government were ri...

David Gauke | 561 c58 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Fie...

Mark Field | 561 c58 (Link to this contribution)

I give my hon. Friend credit for what he has done for the animation and video games industries in...

David Gauke | 561 c59 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The Government recognise that capital and investment can...

Stewart Hosie | 561 c59 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome some of these targeted measures, particularly those relating to video games. I think th...

David Gauke | 561 c59 (Link to this contribution)

There is a balance to be struck, and we have rightly focused on bringing down the rate of corpora...

Geraint Davies | 561 c59 (Link to this contribution)

I have here a letter to the Chancellor from the Admiral group in Swansea—the biggest business in ...

David Gauke | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

I shall certainly take that intervention as lobbying in support of the proposal. The hon. Gentlem...

Justin Tomlinson | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

The tax breaks for the video games industry are a fantastic opportunity to create swathes of new ...

David Gauke | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting that point on the record. He will be aware of the eff...

Ian Swales | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

When people engage in practices where assets are bought and sold for different prices—for example...

David Gauke | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

Where there is an element of dishonesty, it is clearly tax evasion, and Her Majesty’s Revenue and...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

A theme I have raised many times in the Chamber is the number of staff in HMRC. I am sure the Min...

David Gauke | 561 c60 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman and I have debated that point on a number of occasions. The important thing is...

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 561 c61 (Link to this contribution)

While I strongly support the move in the Budget to reduce corporation tax, it is no good encourag...

David Gauke | 561 c61 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We want an international tax system that ensures that economi...

Chris Leslie | 561 c61 (Link to this contribution)

While the Minister is on the subject of companies that might not pay their fair share of corporat...

David Gauke | 561 c61 (Link to this contribution)

No, I cannot confirm that, because it is not correct. The reality is that the reductions in corpo...

Chris Leslie | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

I had a feeling the Minister would say that the corporation tax reduction had been offset by the ...

David Gauke | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

We were clear that our objective was that the bank levy would collect £2.5 billion, on a permanen...

David Gauke | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman before moving on to other subjects.

Andrew Love | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

One can understand that conditions will affect the amount that the banks pay, but surely it is a ...

David Gauke | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right. We have adjusted the rate, and increased it to a level at which the ...

Tim Loughton | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps the Minister will remind Opposition spokespeople that corporation tax is payable only on ...

David Gauke | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that helpful point.

Turning to the wider issue o...

Justin Tomlinson | 561 c62 (Link to this contribution)

This announcement is extremely welcome, but most people simply do not know how much the changes w...

David Gauke | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. He will be aware of the steps that the Government have...

David Gauke | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

I shall give way to the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), as I have not give way to him yet.<...

Andy Sawford | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister may be reluctant to offer real transparency on the impact of the Government’s change...

David Gauke | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

I do not recognise those numbers. We have taken steps to try to get the country out of a signific...

Sheila Gilmore | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

What the Minister fails to appreciate, in saying that he does not recognise those figures, is the...

David Gauke | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for putting on the record her opposition to the increase in the pe...

David Gauke | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

Because he is insistent, I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Stewart Hosie | 561 c63 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is keen to discuss the change in the basic rate allowance, but he is rather less kee...

David Gauke | 561 c64 (Link to this contribution)

The vast majority of those people will pay less income tax in total as a consequence of the measu...

Geraint Davies | 561 c65 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the Minister’s enormous generosity in giving way a third time. On the issue of ...

David Gauke | 561 c65 (Link to this contribution)

I will try not to digress too much. If I can be helpful to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think he ...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc65-6 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister’s job was clearly to drill down into the technical details, rather than focus on the...

David Rutley | 561 c66 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Leslie | 561 c66 (Link to this contribution)

Let us not forget the double-dip recession, together with the shrinking economy in the last quart...

David Rutley | 561 c66 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I am pleased to see that he has departed from the vaud...

Chris Leslie | 561 c66 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry if I am upsetting the hon. Gentleman by having to emphasise some of the things that ar...

Mark Field | 561 c67 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the global situation, particularly among the eurozone cou...

Chris Leslie | 561 c67 (Link to this contribution)

If I can try to be optimistic, I hope that there will be a sustained increase in employment, but ...

Geraint Davies | 561 c67 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend will know that the debt to GDP ratio will have grown from 55% in 2010 to 85% in 20...

Chris Leslie | 561 c67 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is not a good sign that it is taking more and more people t...

Tim Loughton | 561 c67 (Link to this contribution)

I am slightly puzzled that the shadow Minister cannot see the link between the reductions in corp...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc67-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that the former Minister’s suggestions are not borne out by the evidence. Ultimately,...

Tim Loughton | 561 c68 (Link to this contribution)

On that point about families in which one parent is an earner, will the hon. Gentleman therefore ...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc68-9 (Link to this contribution)

I understand that the hon. Gentleman will be tabling amendments on that issue and look forward to...

Andy Sawford | 561 c69 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an incredibly important point about the uneven effects of the Government...

Chris Leslie | 561 c69 (Link to this contribution)

Where is the regional economic strategy from the Government? Where is their attempt to revitalise...

Geraint Davies | 561 c69 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend accept that one of the Government’s biggest failures has been not to resuscit...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc70-1 (Link to this contribution)

It is the politics of shooting oneself in the foot. The difficulty is that the Chancellor does no...

Andrew Love | 561 c71 (Link to this contribution)

If the Government take action on demand without equivalent action on supply, will that not lead t...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc71-2 (Link to this contribution)

We will undoubtedly be able to judge the success of these issues, but there are some deeper flaws...

Mark Field | 561 c72 (Link to this contribution)

Like me, the hon. Gentleman represents an inner-city seat. He will know from his own mailbag that...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc72-3 (Link to this contribution)

The Government are not putting any of those resources into building affordable social housing. Ki...

Geraint Davies | 561 c73 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend will be aware that housing benefit costs have doubled in the past 10 years, but is...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc73-4 (Link to this contribution)

Looking at the situation in the round, that is exactly the sort of welfare reform that we need. I...

Andy Sawford | 561 c74 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend rightly highlights the importance of helping the long-term unemployed back to work...

Chris Leslie | 561 cc74-5 (Link to this contribution)

This is the answer to Ministers who were saying earlier from a sedentary position, “Where are you...

Nigel Evans | 561 c75 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Although there is no time limit on speeches this evening, I hope that Members will be mind...

Mark Field | 561 cc75-6 (Link to this contribution)

If there is one small area where I would agree somewhat with the hon. Member for Nottingham East ...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 c76 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that the Conservative coalition Government had the benefit ...

Mark Field | 561 cc76-7 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a good case, I suppose, but we all know that the reality was that the sh...

Sheila Gilmore | 561 c77 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman clarify his position? Is he suggesting that the OBR—which was hailed as a...

Mark Field | 561 cc78-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am expressing the concern that the OBR was somehow seen as a panacea of independence in a lot o...

Chris Evans | 561 cc79-81 (Link to this contribution)

If there was one test that the Government put in place from the day that they got into power, it ...

Andy Sawford | 561 c81 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that if the Government had taken the sensible advice of shadow Treasury...

Chris Evans | 561 cc81-2 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend, because I was building up to that point.

The Conservatives like to ...

Ian Swales | 561 c82 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome most measures in this Bill, particularly the rise in the personal tax threshold to £9,4...

Julie Hilling | 561 c82 (Link to this contribution)

What does the hon. Gentleman think about HMRC saying that the tax would actually have brought in ...

Ian Swales | 561 cc82-5 (Link to this contribution)

HMRC is well aware that people with those sorts of income levels have many choices about what the...

Tom Blenkinsop | 561 cc85-6 (Link to this contribution)

I should like to address the comments of the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) about capital al...

Ian Swales | 561 c86 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case. Does he not welcome the Infrastructure (Financial A...

Tom Blenkinsop | 561 cc86-8 (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Gentleman knows, certain programmes, such as the Government’s rebuilding schools prog...

Stewart Hosie | 561 cc88-90 (Link to this contribution)

May I start by making two observations? This ought to be the keynote debate on the Government’s a...

Pamela Nash | 561 c90 (Link to this contribution)

Before the hon. Gentleman moves too far on from capital spending, will he say why his party in Sc...

Stewart Hosie | 561 c91 (Link to this contribution)

The problem with that question is that it comes straight from the Labour party central office bri...

Ian Swales | 561 c91 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the first two changes in the 40p band were to ensure that ...

Stewart Hosie | 561 cc91-2 (Link to this contribution)

I recognise that an increase in the basic threshold from £6,400 to £9,400, which is a £3,000 rise...

Frank Dobson | 561 cc92-3 (Link to this contribution)

Whatever else can be said, it is quite clear that this Finance Bill will not sort out the public ...

Ian Swales | 561 c93 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful speech, but I am sure he is not suggesting that all...

Frank Dobson | 561 cc93-5 (Link to this contribution)

I never said for a minute that it started recently. It has been going on for donkey’s years. Howe...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 c95 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) suggested that some people ought to go to prison for such...

Frank Dobson | 561 c95 (Link to this contribution)

It certainly should. I am astonished that no one in this country has yet been prosecuted for the ...

Jonathan Edwards | 561 c95 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman remind the House what the Labour party’s policy is on the so-called...

Frank Dobson | 561 c95 (Link to this contribution)

That might be the case, but I live in hope.

Chris Leslie | 561 c95 (Link to this contribution)

Let me make it absolutely clear that we should have a Government who are arguing for a financial ...

Frank Dobson | 561 cc95-6 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, indeed. I have been advocating such a tax for some time, and I shall continue to do so.

<...
David Rutley | 561 c96 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to speak in today’s debate. This week, of all weeks, is an appropriate time to r...

Frank Dobson | 561 c96 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the average economic growth during the time that Mrs Thatcher wa...

David Rutley | 561 c96 (Link to this contribution)

The debate is about sustainable economic growth, and if we look at the record of the 13 years of ...

Andy Sawford | 561 c96 (Link to this contribution)

What is it about 63 consecutive quarters of economic growth that the hon. Gentleman does not reco...

David Rutley | 561 c96 (Link to this contribution)

As a member of the Treasury Select Committee, I have had the privilege of interviewing and puttin...

Andy Sawford | 561 c97 (Link to this contribution)

You can’t even get to two quarters of growth—

David Rutley | 561 c97 (Link to this contribution)

According to the permanent secretary at the time, wishful thinking was prevalent across the Labou...

Pamela Nash | 561 c97 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman says that my party is guilty of wishful thinking. At the moment, there is no g...

David Rutley | 561 cc97-8 (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Lady had listened, she would know that I did not say that. The phrase about wishful t...

Andy Sawford | 561 c98 (Link to this contribution)

What specific measures in the Budget will give enterprise in my constituency the confidence to be...

David Rutley | 561 c98 (Link to this contribution)

The enterprise allowance, for example, enables—

David Rutley | 561 c98 (Link to this contribution)

In 2014. [Interruption.] We have to take a stepped approach to rectify the changes Labour put thr...

Sheila Gilmore | 561 c98 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the enterprise allowance will be partly funded by the substantia...

David Rutley | 561 c98 (Link to this contribution)

It is sad to see such gloomy faces on the Opposition side of the Chamber. I accused the shadow Mi...

Andy Sawford | 561 c98 (Link to this contribution)

Would the hon. Gentleman write me a letter, which I could circulate among the young people in my ...

David Rutley | 561 cc98-9 (Link to this contribution)

In a spirit of co-operation I suggest that for a change the hon. Gentleman leaves Croydon—[Hon. M...

Baroness Keeley | 561 c99 (Link to this contribution)

What would the hon. Gentleman say to the convenience stores in my constituency who are going to l...

David Rutley | 561 c99 (Link to this contribution)

We have to tackle the deficit that faces this country. We know that welfare payments have spirall...

Baroness Keeley | 561 c99 (Link to this contribution)

I will happily respond. We would actually bring some growth to the economy and get some of our yo...

David Rutley | 561 c99 (Link to this contribution)

Much as I enjoy going to Salford and the hon. Lady’s constituency, some honesty is required about...

Julie Hilling | 561 c99 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Rutley | 561 cc99-101 (Link to this contribution)

No, I have given way enough. We have all enjoyed the debate, but I shall now finish my speech.

David Rutley | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

They are real jobs—not public sector jobs funded by taxpayers’ money, but ongoing and sustainable...

Glyn Davies | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on making a positive speech and recognising that we have a coalitio...

David Rutley | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for those comments. We may be hearing Eeyore noises from Labour Members, b...

Frank Dobson | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Rutley | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot, because Mr Deputy Speaker is giving me dagger looks, so I need to make progress and fin...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot resist commenting on one of the points made by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David R...

Frank Dobson | 561 c101 (Link to this contribution)

While my hon. Friend is commenting on the speech made by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David ...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 cc101-3 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes a good point: when we go to a hospital, we find that no one is there, ...

Jonathan Edwards | 561 c103 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with a number of the hon. Gentleman’s points. The Government talk a good game about rebal...

Kelvin Hopkins | 561 cc103-5 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. We have to use all the weapons and measures of macro-economic policy to make sure that we...

Julie Hilling | 561 cc105-6 (Link to this contribution)

It has felt like a very long four weeks since the Chancellor delivered the Budget, not least beca...

Baroness Keeley | 561 c106 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making some great points about social care. Before she moves on, would she like...

Julie Hilling | 561 cc107-8 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree. On Saturday, I met a couple; the husband was the carer, looking after his wif...

Andy Sawford | 561 c108 (Link to this contribution)

Members have been addressing two questions in this debate: first, where we find ourselves and why...

Jonathan Edwards | 561 c108 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that economic performance prior to the crash was based on uns...

Andy Sawford | 561 c109 (Link to this contribution)

The previous Labour Government’s record of 63 consecutive quarters of growth is absolutely unargu...

Pamela Nash | 561 c110 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend may know that we had a similar problem in my area, north Lanarkshire, with our Tat...

Andy Sawford | 561 c110 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The story of the decision to close the steelworks in Corby in...

Stephen Doughty | 561 c110 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend led a strong Adjournment debate recently and I was proud to join him in it. Does h...

Andy Sawford | 561 cc110-1 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I will say more later about capital spending in this count...

Russell Brown | 561 c111 (Link to this contribution)

In the last couple of weeks, I received an answer from the Cabinet Office on the private sector j...

Andy Sawford | 561 c111 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for bringing the real figures to the House. He is right that the Governmen...

Mel Stride | 561 c111 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the huge problem of unemployment under all Governments. Is h...

Andy Sawford | 561 c111 (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Gentleman is being honest, he knows that the figures that he is quoting reflect the i...

Pamela Nash | 561 c111 (Link to this contribution)

Is the key point not that unemployment in this country is now higher than when the Government too...

Andy Sawford | 561 cc111-3 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right. Of course, unemployment is also higher in Corby. My constituents will th...

William Bain | 561 cc113-7 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill is a weak Finance Bill that matches the current depressed state of the UK economy. It fa...

Sheila Gilmore | 561 cc117-120 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley), who is no longer in his place, will be rather di...

Sheila Gilmore | 561 c120 (Link to this contribution)

I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, because he has not been here through all these hours o...

Geraint Davies | 561 cc120-2 (Link to this contribution)

As you know, Mr Speaker, I took the time to pay my tribute to Baroness Thatcher last week. I aske...

Catherine McKinnell | 561 cc121-6 (Link to this contribution)

We have had a surprisingly good debate despite what was, frankly, a disappointing and lacklustre ...

Catherine McKinnell | 561 c126 (Link to this contribution)

The dire economic situation demanded an urgent response from the Chancellor. Indeed, the director...

Sajid Javid | 561 cc126-7 (Link to this contribution)

In debating the Finance Bill and the economy, one is reminded of the late noble Baroness Thatcher...

Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 561 c127 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an important point about the Government’s assistance to the oil and gas ...

Sajid Javid | 561 c128 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I am convinced that there will be further signific...

Simon Hughes | 561 c129 (Link to this contribution)

Let me say to my hon. Friend and to those on the Treasury Bench that his announcement about a gen...

Sajid Javid | 561 c129 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s support for the measure.

This Finance Bill includes measur...

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