Justice and Security Bill [Lords]
Thursday, 7 February 2013
Bills
House of Commons
I beg to move amendment 8, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘nine’ and insert
‘an elected Chair an...
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 9, page 1, line 9, at e...
Show all contributions (166)
Before I deal with amendments 8 to 14, which stand in the name of, among others, my hon. Friend t...
As an ISC member of seven years’ standing, may I say that I take grave offence at what the hon. G...
The hon. Gentleman’s intervention has slightly pre-empted a quotation that I was about to give. I...
I am following the hon. Gentleman’s argument with interest. What evidence does he have to suggest...
It is, of course, very difficult to prove such things conclusively, but I will come on to discuss...
As the Chairman of the Committee that produced the report, I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that...
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving his opinion, and I do not mean any slight ag...
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, especially as I must apologise because I will not...
My right hon. and learned Friend accurately reflects the Bill’s contents, but as I shall explain ...
Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation outlined by my right hon. and learned Friend the Mem...
I perhaps would not have chosen precisely the same words, but I entirely agree with my hon. Frien...
I am sorry to disagree with both my hon. Friends, especially as they really are my hon. Friends. ...
Since my hon. Friend has brought me on to this territory early, let me deal with these points now...
I want to be clear about my hon. Friend’s position. Is he concerned that, as on previous occasion...
As I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend knows, I am often in close contact with the Whips, ...
The hon. Gentleman is seeking to make the perfectly logical and rational argument that the Chair ...
The right hon. Lady’s question pre-empts some of my other remarks, but let me just draw her atten...
This is meant to be a helpful intervention. I think my hon. Friend accepts that if we are to have...
I certainly agree with my hon. Friend on that point, but that is why the amendment is phrased in ...
Has my hon. Friend taken on board the ultimate argument against his amendment—that is, the invidi...
I recognise that my right hon. and learned Friend is advancing that argument with the best possib...
Like others, I do not take offence at the argument, but I think the hon. Gentleman’s representati...
Let me take both those points. I do not wish to cast any doubt on particular members, but we are ...
I shall try to be brief because I know that a great deal of ground needs to be covered in these d...
Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept the substance of the court judgments made around the Bin...
There is a whole separate debate to be had about that. The hon. Gentleman rightly referred earlie...
I will give way, then I intend to conclude.
Why does the right hon. Gentleman consider it inappropriate to give the Prime Minister of the day...
Because, as I have already said and as the hon. Gentleman acknowledges, the ISC is a different ki...
Is not it precisely because the Committee’s work is so vital—in some senses it is more important ...
The hon. Gentleman’s intervention seems to be predicated on the view that the Committee is entire...
I would like to confine my remarks to an elaboration of a point that was made very effectively by...
If the Chair is elected and enjoys the authority of the House, apart from any prime ministerial p...
I am afraid that I do not think that cuts any ice whatsoever, because one cannot be in a position...
Had I been inclined to support amendments 8 to 14, my inclination would have dropped dramatically...
I have the good fortune, in the interests of brevity, to be able to acknowledge all that has been...
I will finish this point, if I may.
The amendment contains a contradiction in saying that w...
I admire the way in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is attacking my amendment and seek...
First, I had a concession on the peers and now I have a concession on what appears to be an inher...
Let it be stated from the beginning—this should be made absolutely clear—that this is not about t...
I do not think that anybody is advancing the argument that the heads of agencies or the agencies ...
When the agencies were put on a statutory basis, however, and appointments duly made, it was argu...
My hon. Friend is making a speech that he has made for many years and his important views are sin...
Yes, of course, and that is an improvement. I do not challenge that. Indeed, as I have said, plac...
Does my hon. Friend not accept, however, that this is a joint Committee and that other such Commi...
Yes, I do accept that, but it would be useful if Commons members of the Committee were elected. W...
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). I am sure I have agreed wi...
I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but I am convinced that we are not getting to gr...
The right hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point. We are engaged in a process here. There has been...
I plan to speak to amendments 8 to 14, which deal with the election of the ISC Chairman, and then...
Let us imagine that, say, half a dozen people wanted to apply. Has the hon. Lady considered what ...
The right hon. and learned Gentleman highlights yet another problem with supporting amendment 9 a...
That is one of the more ingenious arguments for not having an election. It seems to me more than ...
Nobody is saying that democracy is not appropriate. We are just highlighting some of the issues w...
My hon. Friend is making a very good case, so I hesitate to interrupt her further. Does she accep...
My right hon. Friend makes that point very clearly. I will return to my argument, because I am co...
I have some experience of that point. I was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for nine ye...
The hon. Gentleman speaks with great experience as the former Chair of the Public Accounts Commit...
On that point, the hon. Lady’s response is correct. The people who advise the Intelligence and Se...
That information is very helpful.
I have explained why the Opposition will not support amen...
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is consensus across the House that the Bill will strengthen ...
My right hon. Friend raises an important point to which I hope the Minister will respond. Parliam...
I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that that prob...
I am grateful if that is the case. If the Minister could explain that, it would be helpful.
Before dealing with Government amendment 58, which provides the Government with the necessary pow...
I think we are all agreed that strengthening the scrutiny of the Secret Intelligence Service is a...
I encounter many people making bids for resources for their particular, extremely important, acti...
We might be getting bogged down in a public spending round, and we have other matters to move on ...
I hope not to get bogged down. I wish to assist our Front-Bench team by pointing out that the Int...
I can say only that I, like my right hon. and hon. Friends, am fully aware of the Committee’s vie...
It is clear from the amendment that we do not seek to allow the House of Commons to elect anybody...
My hon. Friend is confident that if someone starts campaigning and positioning himself or herself...
Not for the first time I have made common cause with a well-known Member from the left of the Lab...
I beg to move amendment 56, in schedule 1, page 16, line 31, leave out ‘(6)’ and insert ‘(5)’.
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 57
Ame...
After that interesting debate about the basis for the important reforms that are taking place to ...
I accept the validity of what my hon. Friend says, but the problem is that in that formulation th...
My hon. Friend, in his customary way, has highlighted the genuine challenges that both the Govern...
I am following the Minister’s argument closely, and I acknowledge that it is difficult to get the...
I hear the point that the right hon. Lady makes. The intent of the changes in the Bill is to unde...
Perhaps I might endorse the Minister’s enthusiasm for the public hearings, which would constitute...
Informal discussions have taken place to work through the detailed and technical issues that need...
I hope the Minister will recognise that the concern expressed by all of us as members of the Inte...
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. There is scope to deal with this further in the memorand...
In the absence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, may I say how grate...
I understand. I look forward to continuing informal discussions, and hope that agreement on the m...
Does the Minister agree that this is a similar dilemma to the one we faced on the question of pub...
I fully respect what my hon. Friend has said. We have given careful consideration, at length, to ...
I just want to advise the Minister—who might not need advising—and the House that there is a Join...
I entirely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman; hence the reason the Government have ...
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his explicit recognition of the fact that the Committee h...
As the right hon. Lady says, the Committee already receives information on ongoing operational ma...
I am following the Minister’s argument closely. It would be helpful if he told us how he envisage...
This relates to operational matters and inquiries by the Committee. We have had discussions about...
The Minister will have gathered from the contributions from the right hon. Members for Salford an...
I absolutely agree and direct my hon. Friend to the provisions in schedule 1, particularly the pa...
I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Lady, but then, because of time co...
I am grateful. Does the Minister not accept that the word “voluntarily” goes against the spirit o...
I take note of that point, but let me take the right hon. Lady’s intervention before I respond. S...
The Minister is likely to face a unanimous view on this issue—certainly from members of the Commi...
In their contributions this afternoon, members of the ISC have clearly underlined the robust scru...
I am conscious of how long I have already spoken for, but I will give way one last time.
The Minister has been generous and is providing an excellent defence of his position, but he does...
I hear the clear statements, but I have sought to respond in an equally clear fashion on why we j...
I want to discuss amendment 75, which deals with the Osmotherly rules, amendment 76, which deals ...
The so-called Osmotherly rules were devised by the Executive but were never accepted in any form ...
That is an interesting point, but because of the way in which the Bill is drafted and because of ...
The ISC has, on occasion, sought permission from Ministers in a previous Administration to obtain...
It is helpful to know that. However, time is pressing, so I shall move on to amendment 76. The Mi...
Would the effect of amendment 76 be that if, for example, the ISC uncovered evidence of collusion...
I have tabled this amendment because I am not satisfied that the provisions the Government have p...
Order. There are four Members trying to catch my eye on this set of amendments and the knife fall...
I shall be brief. On amendment 73, in the light of the undertaking given by the Minister to my ho...
Amendment 71 seeks to provide some form of recourse for people who have been defamed by the UK se...
Perhaps some of my right hon. Friends will explain to the hon. Lady the powers that exist to deal...
I am not convinced that the Committee would be acting in a quasi-judicial role; I would share the...
I wish to be helpful to the hon. Lady, and I think that the Investigatory Powers Tribunal is the ...
In the interests of time, I will leave the matter there and pursue it via other avenues. I am gra...
I am entirely sympathetic to what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has sai...
I want to consider briefly the restrictive wording of parts of clause 2 and the voluntary issue t...
This has been a useful debate underlining the importance the House attaches to the scrutiny provi...
I appreciate the Minister’s rehearsing the Government’s commitment to getting Shaker Aamer back f...
I can only say that decisions about the release of Mr Aamer rest entirely with the US Government....
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I commend the Bill in its present ...
Order. I feel sure that the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) will match the exemplary b...
I am most grateful for your advice, Mr Speaker. I am sorry that the Minister without Portfolio di...
The hon. Gentleman has again made references to matters connected with the Liberal Democrats in r...
I certainly would not commit myself to repealing part 2, because it includes the Norwich Pharmaca...
Part 1 of this Bill is a logical extension of a process that began approximately 20 years ago. Th...
I very much respect the views of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but is he satisfied, as a ...
It is a procedure that already exists in our law. If my hon. Friend is concerned about the univer...
Yes, that argument was lost a long time ago, but is that a reason to pass the Bill into law when ...
Since the hon. Gentleman puts the point that way, let us turn it around and ask what he would do....
It is always open to the defendant to choose not to adduce evidence to support his case. If the s...
But if the case raises the kind of issues that were raised in the case of Binyam Mohamed, what do...
I have a great deal of respect for the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Men...
The debate will finish no later than 5 o’clock, so can all Members please show time restraint in ...
I will not go down the route that has so far been followed in this Third Reading debate, other th...
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who brought his ...
Order. I think there are still three Members standing.
4.43 pm
It is fascinating to follow Members’ comments on the internal dynamics of all parties, but I will...
As a new member of the Joint Committee, and with the Chairman in his place, I would like to say t...
I agree. That is now firmly on the record.
As a result of the Joint Committee’s work in the...
There are still two Members left to speak. I call Jeremy Corbyn.
4.49 pm
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think you are asking me to be very brief.
I am suggesting that you split the time limit.
Oh, you are asking me to do maths as well. I will be extremely brief.
I have no quarrel wit...
I am sorry to intervene late in my hon. Friend’s speech. Not only did we not vote on part 2; we d...
My hon. Friend makes a strong point and it is well put. The relationship with other security serv...
I want to have a conversation with my good friend, my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East ...
Will my hon. Friend give way?
I was about to finish, but I will give way.
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a rule of law that if the Government are not able to defend ...
Yes, my hon. and learned Friend is an experienced leading counsel. I would have thought that ther...