UK Parliament / Open data

Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

Debate on bills on Thursday, 7 March 2013, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Clarke of Nottingham. The answering member was Andy Slaughter.
Report stage second day. Queen's consent signified. Third reading debate agreed to on division (222 votes to 13), and Bill passed. Relevant Document: Eighth Report from the Joint Committee of Human Rights of Session 2012-13, Legislative Scrutiny: Justice and Security Bill (second Report), HC 1014.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
559 cc1158-1228 
Session
2012-13
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Procedure
Queen's consent
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Justice and Security Bill (HL) 2012-13. As amended in Public Bill Committee.
Thursday, 7 February 2013
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Steve Baker | 559 c1159 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 8, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘nine’ and insert

‘an elected Chair an...

Lindsay Hoyle | 559 c1159 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 9, page 1, line 9, at e...


Show all contributions (166)
Steve Baker | 559 cc1159-1160 (Link to this contribution)

Before I deal with amendments 8 to 14, which stand in the name of, among others, my hon. Friend t...

George Howarth | 559 c1160 (Link to this contribution)

As an ISC member of seven years’ standing, may I say that I take grave offence at what the hon. G...

Steve Baker | 559 c1160 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention has slightly pre-empted a quotation that I was about to give. I...

Julian Huppert | 559 c1160 (Link to this contribution)

I am following the hon. Gentleman’s argument with interest. What evidence does he have to suggest...

Steve Baker | 559 c1161 (Link to this contribution)

It is, of course, very difficult to prove such things conclusively, but I will come on to discuss...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 559 c1161 (Link to this contribution)

As the Chairman of the Committee that produced the report, I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that...

Steve Baker | 559 c1161 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving his opinion, and I do not mean any slight ag...

Malcolm Rifkind | 559 c1161 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, especially as I must apologise because I will not...

Steve Baker | 559 c1161 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. and learned Friend accurately reflects the Bill’s contents, but as I shall explain ...

Douglas Carswell | 559 c1161 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation outlined by my right hon. and learned Friend the Mem...

Steve Baker | 559 c1162 (Link to this contribution)

I perhaps would not have chosen precisely the same words, but I entirely agree with my hon. Frien...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1162 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to disagree with both my hon. Friends, especially as they really are my hon. Friends. ...

Steve Baker | 559 c1162 (Link to this contribution)

Since my hon. Friend has brought me on to this territory early, let me deal with these points now...

Malcolm Rifkind | 559 c1162 (Link to this contribution)

I want to be clear about my hon. Friend’s position. Is he concerned that, as on previous occasion...

Steve Baker | 559 cc1162-3 (Link to this contribution)

As I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend knows, I am often in close contact with the Whips, ...

Hazel Blears | 559 c1163 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to make the perfectly logical and rational argument that the Chair ...

Steve Baker | 559 c1163 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Lady’s question pre-empts some of my other remarks, but let me just draw her atten...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1163 (Link to this contribution)

This is meant to be a helpful intervention. I think my hon. Friend accepts that if we are to have...

Steve Baker | 559 c1164 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend on that point, but that is why the amendment is phrased in ...

Malcolm Rifkind | 559 c1164 (Link to this contribution)

Has my hon. Friend taken on board the ultimate argument against his amendment—that is, the invidi...

Steve Baker | 559 c1164 (Link to this contribution)

I recognise that my right hon. and learned Friend is advancing that argument with the best possib...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1164 (Link to this contribution)

Like others, I do not take offence at the argument, but I think the hon. Gentleman’s representati...

Steve Baker | 559 c1165 (Link to this contribution)

Let me take both those points. I do not wish to cast any doubt on particular members, but we are ...

George Howarth | 559 cc1165-6 (Link to this contribution)

I shall try to be brief because I know that a great deal of ground needs to be covered in these d...

Steve Baker | 559 c1166 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept the substance of the court judgments made around the Bin...

George Howarth | 559 c1166 (Link to this contribution)

There is a whole separate debate to be had about that. The hon. Gentleman rightly referred earlie...

George Howarth | 559 c1166 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way, then I intend to conclude.

Steve Baker | 559 c1166 (Link to this contribution)

Why does the right hon. Gentleman consider it inappropriate to give the Prime Minister of the day...

George Howarth | 559 cc1166-7 (Link to this contribution)

Because, as I have already said and as the hon. Gentleman acknowledges, the ISC is a different ki...

Douglas Carswell | 559 c1167 (Link to this contribution)

Is not it precisely because the Committee’s work is so vital—in some senses it is more important ...

George Howarth | 559 c1167 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention seems to be predicated on the view that the Committee is entire...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1167 (Link to this contribution)

I would like to confine my remarks to an elaboration of a point that was made very effectively by...

Steve Baker | 559 c1167 (Link to this contribution)

If the Chair is elected and enjoys the authority of the House, apart from any prime ministerial p...

Julian Lewis | 559 cc1168-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that I do not think that cuts any ice whatsoever, because one cannot be in a position...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 559 cc1169-1170 (Link to this contribution)

Had I been inclined to support amendments 8 to 14, my inclination would have dropped dramatically...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 cc1170-1 (Link to this contribution)

I have the good fortune, in the interests of brevity, to be able to acknowledge all that has been...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1171 (Link to this contribution)

I will finish this point, if I may.

The amendment contains a contradiction in saying that w...

Steve Baker | 559 c1171 (Link to this contribution)

I admire the way in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is attacking my amendment and seek...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1171 (Link to this contribution)

First, I had a concession on the peers and now I have a concession on what appears to be an inher...

David Winnick | 559 cc1171-2 (Link to this contribution)

Let it be stated from the beginning—this should be made absolutely clear—that this is not about t...

George Howarth | 559 c1172 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think that anybody is advancing the argument that the heads of agencies or the agencies ...

David Winnick | 559 c1172 (Link to this contribution)

When the agencies were put on a statutory basis, however, and appointments duly made, it was argu...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 559 c1172 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a speech that he has made for many years and his important views are sin...

David Winnick | 559 cc1172-3 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, of course, and that is an improvement. I do not challenge that. Indeed, as I have said, plac...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 559 c1173 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend not accept, however, that this is a joint Committee and that other such Commi...

David Winnick | 559 c1173 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I do accept that, but it would be useful if Commons members of the Committee were elected. W...

Lord Brady of Altrincham | 559 cc1173-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). I am sure I have agreed wi...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 559 c1174 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but I am convinced that we are not getting to gr...

Lord Brady of Altrincham | 559 cc1174-5 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point. We are engaged in a process here. There has been...

Diana Johnson | 559 cc1175-6 (Link to this contribution)

I plan to speak to amendments 8 to 14, which deal with the election of the ISC Chairman, and then...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1176 (Link to this contribution)

Let us imagine that, say, half a dozen people wanted to apply. Has the hon. Lady considered what ...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1176 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. and learned Gentleman highlights yet another problem with supporting amendment 9 a...

Steve Baker | 559 c1176 (Link to this contribution)

That is one of the more ingenious arguments for not having an election. It seems to me more than ...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1176 (Link to this contribution)

Nobody is saying that democracy is not appropriate. We are just highlighting some of the issues w...

George Howarth | 559 c1177 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a very good case, so I hesitate to interrupt her further. Does she accep...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1177 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes that point very clearly. I will return to my argument, because I am co...

Edward Leigh | 559 c1177 (Link to this contribution)

I have some experience of that point. I was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for nine ye...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1177 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman speaks with great experience as the former Chair of the Public Accounts Commit...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1177 (Link to this contribution)

On that point, the hon. Lady’s response is correct. The people who advise the Intelligence and Se...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1177 (Link to this contribution)

That information is very helpful.

I have explained why the Opposition will not support amen...

Hazel Blears | 559 cc1177-8 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is consensus across the House that the Bill will strengthen ...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1178 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend raises an important point to which I hope the Minister will respond. Parliam...

George Howarth | 559 c1178 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that that prob...

Diana Johnson | 559 cc1178-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful if that is the case. If the Minister could explain that, it would be helpful.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 559 c1179 (Link to this contribution)

Before dealing with Government amendment 58, which provides the Government with the necessary pow...

Hazel Blears | 559 c1179 (Link to this contribution)

I think we are all agreed that strengthening the scrutiny of the Secret Intelligence Service is a...

Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 559 c1180 (Link to this contribution)

I encounter many people making bids for resources for their particular, extremely important, acti...

Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 559 c1180 (Link to this contribution)

We might be getting bogged down in a public spending round, and we have other matters to move on ...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1180 (Link to this contribution)

I hope not to get bogged down. I wish to assist our Front-Bench team by pointing out that the Int...

Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 559 cc1180-2 (Link to this contribution)

I can say only that I, like my right hon. and hon. Friends, am fully aware of the Committee’s vie...

Steve Baker | 559 c1182 (Link to this contribution)

It is clear from the amendment that we do not seek to allow the House of Commons to elect anybody...

Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 559 cc1182-3 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is confident that if someone starts campaigning and positioning himself or herself...

Steve Baker | 559 c1183 (Link to this contribution)

Not for the first time I have made common cause with a well-known Member from the left of the Lab...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1183 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 56, in schedule 1, page 16, line 31, leave out ‘(6)’ and insert ‘(5)’.

Nigel Evans | 559 cc1183-4 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendment 57

Ame...

James Brokenshire | 559 cc1184-6 (Link to this contribution)

After that interesting debate about the basis for the important reforms that are taking place to ...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1186 (Link to this contribution)

I accept the validity of what my hon. Friend says, but the problem is that in that formulation th...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1186 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend, in his customary way, has highlighted the genuine challenges that both the Govern...

Hazel Blears | 559 c1186 (Link to this contribution)

I am following the Minister’s argument closely, and I acknowledge that it is difficult to get the...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1187 (Link to this contribution)

I hear the point that the right hon. Lady makes. The intent of the changes in the Bill is to unde...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1187 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I might endorse the Minister’s enthusiasm for the public hearings, which would constitute...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1187 (Link to this contribution)

Informal discussions have taken place to work through the detailed and technical issues that need...

Mark Field | 559 c1187 (Link to this contribution)

I hope the Minister will recognise that the concern expressed by all of us as members of the Inte...

James Brokenshire | 559 cc1187-8 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. There is scope to deal with this further in the memorand...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1188 (Link to this contribution)

In the absence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, may I say how grate...

James Brokenshire | 559 cc1188-1190 (Link to this contribution)

I understand. I look forward to continuing informal discussions, and hope that agreement on the m...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1190 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister agree that this is a similar dilemma to the one we faced on the question of pub...

James Brokenshire | 559 cc1190-1 (Link to this contribution)

I fully respect what my hon. Friend has said. We have given careful consideration, at length, to ...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1191 (Link to this contribution)

I just want to advise the Minister—who might not need advising—and the House that there is a Join...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1191 (Link to this contribution)

I entirely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman; hence the reason the Government have ...

Hazel Blears | 559 c1192 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his explicit recognition of the fact that the Committee h...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1192 (Link to this contribution)

As the right hon. Lady says, the Committee already receives information on ongoing operational ma...

George Howarth | 559 c1192 (Link to this contribution)

I am following the Minister’s argument closely. It would be helpful if he told us how he envisage...

James Brokenshire | 559 cc1192-3 (Link to this contribution)

This relates to operational matters and inquiries by the Committee. We have had discussions about...

Mark Field | 559 c1193 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister will have gathered from the contributions from the right hon. Members for Salford an...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1193 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree and direct my hon. Friend to the provisions in schedule 1, particularly the pa...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1193 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Lady, but then, because of time co...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 559 c1193 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful. Does the Minister not accept that the word “voluntarily” goes against the spirit o...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1193 (Link to this contribution)

I take note of that point, but let me take the right hon. Lady’s intervention before I respond. S...

Hazel Blears | 559 c1193 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is likely to face a unanimous view on this issue—certainly from members of the Commi...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1194 (Link to this contribution)

In their contributions this afternoon, members of the ISC have clearly underlined the robust scru...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1194 (Link to this contribution)

I am conscious of how long I have already spoken for, but I will give way one last time.

Paul Goggins | 559 c1194 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has been generous and is providing an excellent defence of his position, but he does...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1194 (Link to this contribution)

I hear the clear statements, but I have sought to respond in an equally clear fashion on why we j...

Diana Johnson | 559 cc1194-5 (Link to this contribution)

I want to discuss amendment 75, which deals with the Osmotherly rules, amendment 76, which deals ...

Lord Beith | 559 c1195 (Link to this contribution)

The so-called Osmotherly rules were devised by the Executive but were never accepted in any form ...

Diana Johnson | 559 c1195 (Link to this contribution)

That is an interesting point, but because of the way in which the Bill is drafted and because of ...

Lord Beith | 559 c1195 (Link to this contribution)

The ISC has, on occasion, sought permission from Ministers in a previous Administration to obtain...

Diana Johnson | 559 cc1195-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is helpful to know that. However, time is pressing, so I shall move on to amendment 76. The Mi...

Caroline Lucas | 559 c1197 (Link to this contribution)

Would the effect of amendment 76 be that if, for example, the ISC uncovered evidence of collusion...

Diana Johnson | 559 cc1197-9 (Link to this contribution)

I have tabled this amendment because I am not satisfied that the provisions the Government have p...

Nigel Evans | 559 c1199 (Link to this contribution)

Order. There are four Members trying to catch my eye on this set of amendments and the knife fall...

Julian Lewis | 559 cc1199-1200 (Link to this contribution)

I shall be brief. On amendment 73, in the light of the undertaking given by the Minister to my ho...

Caroline Lucas | 559 cc1200-2 (Link to this contribution)

Amendment 71 seeks to provide some form of recourse for people who have been defamed by the UK se...

George Howarth | 559 c1202 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps some of my right hon. Friends will explain to the hon. Lady the powers that exist to deal...

Caroline Lucas | 559 c1202 (Link to this contribution)

I am not convinced that the Committee would be acting in a quasi-judicial role; I would share the...

Julian Lewis | 559 c1202 (Link to this contribution)

I wish to be helpful to the hon. Lady, and I think that the Investigatory Powers Tribunal is the ...

Caroline Lucas | 559 c1202 (Link to this contribution)

In the interests of time, I will leave the matter there and pursue it via other avenues. I am gra...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 cc1202-3 (Link to this contribution)

I am entirely sympathetic to what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has sai...

Lord Beith | 559 cc1203-4 (Link to this contribution)

I want to consider briefly the restrictive wording of parts of clause 2 and the voluntary issue t...

James Brokenshire | 559 c1204 (Link to this contribution)

This has been a useful debate underlining the importance the House attaches to the scrutiny provi...

Caroline Lucas | 559 c1204 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate the Minister’s rehearsing the Government’s commitment to getting Shaker Aamer back f...

James Brokenshire | 559 cc1204-6 (Link to this contribution)

I can only say that decisions about the release of Mr Aamer rest entirely with the US Government....

Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 559 cc1207-1213 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I commend the Bill in its present ...

John Bercow | 559 c1213 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I feel sure that the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) will match the exemplary b...

Andy Slaughter | 559 cc1213-5 (Link to this contribution)

I am most grateful for your advice, Mr Speaker. I am sorry that the Minister without Portfolio di...

Julian Huppert | 559 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has again made references to matters connected with the Liberal Democrats in r...

Andy Slaughter | 559 cc1216-7 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly would not commit myself to repealing part 2, because it includes the Norwich Pharmaca...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 cc1217-9 (Link to this contribution)

Part 1 of this Bill is a logical extension of a process that began approximately 20 years ago. Th...

Edward Leigh | 559 c1219 (Link to this contribution)

I very much respect the views of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but is he satisfied, as a ...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1219 (Link to this contribution)

It is a procedure that already exists in our law. If my hon. Friend is concerned about the univer...

Jeremy Corbyn | 559 c1219 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, that argument was lost a long time ago, but is that a reason to pass the Bill into law when ...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 c1219 (Link to this contribution)

Since the hon. Gentleman puts the point that way, let us turn it around and ask what he would do....

Edward Leigh | 559 c1219 (Link to this contribution)

It is always open to the defendant to choose not to adduce evidence to support his case. If the s...

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem | 559 cc1219-1220 (Link to this contribution)

But if the case raises the kind of issues that were raised in the case of Binyam Mohamed, what do...

David Winnick | 559 cc1220-1 (Link to this contribution)

I have a great deal of respect for the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Men...

Nigel Evans | 559 c1221 (Link to this contribution)

The debate will finish no later than 5 o’clock, so can all Members please show time restraint in ...

Julian Lewis | 559 cc1221-2 (Link to this contribution)

I will not go down the route that has so far been followed in this Third Reading debate, other th...

George Howarth | 559 cc1222-3 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who brought his ...

Nigel Evans | 559 c1223 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I think there are still three Members standing.

4.43 pm

Julian Huppert | 559 cc1223-4 (Link to this contribution)

It is fascinating to follow Members’ comments on the internal dynamics of all parties, but I will...

Simon Hughes | 559 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

As a new member of the Joint Committee, and with the Chairman in his place, I would like to say t...

Julian Huppert | 559 cc1224-5 (Link to this contribution)

I agree. That is now firmly on the record.

As a result of the Joint Committee’s work in the...

Nigel Evans | 559 c1225 (Link to this contribution)

There are still two Members left to speak. I call Jeremy Corbyn.

4.49 pm

Jeremy Corbyn | 559 c1225 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think you are asking me to be very brief.

Nigel Evans | 559 c1225 (Link to this contribution)

I am suggesting that you split the time limit.

Jeremy Corbyn | 559 cc1225-6 (Link to this contribution)

Oh, you are asking me to do maths as well. I will be extremely brief.

I have no quarrel wit...

John McDonnell | 559 c1226 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to intervene late in my hon. Friend’s speech. Not only did we not vote on part 2; we d...

Jeremy Corbyn | 559 c1226 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a strong point and it is well put. The relationship with other security serv...

Edward Leigh | 559 cc1226-7 (Link to this contribution)

I want to have a conversation with my good friend, my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East ...

Edward Leigh | 559 c1227 (Link to this contribution)

I was about to finish, but I will give way.

Geoffrey Cox | 559 c1227 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a rule of law that if the Government are not able to defend ...

Edward Leigh | 559 cc1227-8 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, my hon. and learned Friend is an experienced leading counsel. I would have thought that ther...

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