UK Parliament / Open data

Succession to the Crown Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 28 January 2013, in the House of Commons, led by Tom Brake. The answering member was Wayne David.
Bill further considered as amended in Committee. Amendments withdrawn. New clause 1 negatived on division (371 to 38). Third reading debate agreed on question. Bill passed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
557 cc694-739 
Session
2012-13
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Succession to the Crown Bill 2012-13. As amended in Committee.
Tuesday, 22 January 2013
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c695 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

John Bercow | 557 c695 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 1, clause 2, page 1, li...


Show all contributions (146)
Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 cc695-6 (Link to this contribution)

It occurs to me that the Leader of the House must have a sense of humour. Today, as I am sure you...

Michael Ellis | 557 c696 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that a discrimination is inherent, and has been since time immemorial, ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 cc696-7 (Link to this contribution)

Had my hon. Friend not been meeting His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales last Tuesday, he would...

Edward Leigh | 557 c697 (Link to this contribution)

I warn my hon. Friend against accepting all the arguments of the Whig supremacy.

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c697 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point, although it is worth bearing in mind that the Hou...

Michael Ellis | 557 c697 (Link to this contribution)

I am rather surprised to hear my hon. Friend’s comments, because although I had to be absent from...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c697 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, which made him sound even more antiquarian ...

Jim McGovern | 557 c697 (Link to this contribution)

Can the hon. Gentleman nail an argument that continues in Scotland day after day, week after week...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 cc697-8 (Link to this contribution)

Yes. The Catholic Emancipation Act 1829 makes it clear that the Prime Minister is entitled to be ...

Daniel Byles | 557 c698 (Link to this contribution)

I always listen with great interest and enjoyment to my hon. Friend’s speeches on these matters, ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c698 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point. I also think that the law should represent the rea...

Michael Ellis | 557 c698 (Link to this contribution)

Is not my hon. Friend’s point further strengthened by the fact that those of other faiths, such a...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c698 (Link to this contribution)

There is a part of the Act of Settlement that requires the sovereign to be in communion with the ...

Dan Rogerson | 557 c699 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is going through the history, so may I point out that some of us represent par...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c699 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point, because it allows me to remind th...

Bob Stewart | 557 c699 (Link to this contribution)

Could we consider having as Supreme Governor of the Church of England the Archbishop of Canterbur...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 cc699-700 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and that might have been an amendment worthy of considera...

Michael Ellis | 557 c700 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not the case that his holiness the Pope, who wears the triple crown, is also a temporal sov...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c700 (Link to this contribution)

Much though I admire his late Holiness Pope Pius IX, he was the last Pope to exercise effective t...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c700 (Link to this contribution)

The principle is different, although it is worth noting that the only two anointed sovereigns in ...

Peter Tapsell | 557 c700 (Link to this contribution)

I always listen to my hon. Friend with great admiration on these and all other matters, as I did ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c700 (Link to this contribution)

We are legislating now for the succession of the Crown; the coronation oath is legislated for as ...

Lord Beith | 557 c701 (Link to this contribution)

May I ask the hon. Gentleman about what seems to be at least a technical defect in the new clause...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c701 (Link to this contribution)

That is a fantastically late 17th century point. The language of coronation oaths of the late 17t...

Dan Rogerson | 557 c701 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to address an interesting point through his amendments. However, wo...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 cc701-2 (Link to this contribution)

That is perfectly possible, but at what point would we know that that was the case? It seems to m...

Lord Beith | 557 c702 (Link to this contribution)

Does not the hon. Gentleman’s amendment address a situation that has arisen in other Protestant m...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c702 (Link to this contribution)

I am in complete agreement with my right hon. Friend. The Act of Settlement deems somebody who ha...

Jim Cunningham | 557 c702 (Link to this contribution)

What does the hon. Gentleman have to say about confirmation?

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c702 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right that a child who decided to be confirmed as a Catholic would be exclu...

Lord Beith | 557 c702 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman posits a situation in which someone gives up his Catholic faith for the Crown,...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c702 (Link to this contribution)

Once again, I am in entire agreement with my right hon. Friend. It is important that the decision...

John McDonnell | 557 c703 (Link to this contribution)

I do not say this with any personal interest, but where does someone who has been excommunicated ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c703 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid to say to the hon. Gentleman, who I hope is not in that unhappy state, that an excomm...

Michael Ellis | 557 c703 (Link to this contribution)

I think that, in canon law, it may be canon 1125 which refers to best endeavours. Is it not the c...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c703 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to say that my hon. Friend misses the point. It is a question of the succession. It ma...

Paul Flynn | 557 c703 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the most important role of the Head of State is to act in the ...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 cc703-4 (Link to this contribution)

I think the monarchy should be an hereditary monarchy and should go through the nearest line that...

John McDonnell | 557 cc704-5 (Link to this contribution)

I attached my name to these amendments because they reflect an amendment I tabled for last week’s...

Martin Horwood | 557 c705 (Link to this contribution)

The amendment is framed in anti-disestablishmentarianistic language, in that it creates a rather ...

John McDonnell | 557 c705 (Link to this contribution)

I agree that this will lead to that debate, but I am happy to take these reforms one step at a ti...

Michael Ellis | 557 c705 (Link to this contribution)

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman about the obnoxious nature of any legislation, however ...

John McDonnell | 557 c705 (Link to this contribution)

That may well have been the case in the past, but I think we have moved on. When the issue was de...

Paul Flynn | 557 c706 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree, having been present at previous debates, that the objection to breakin...

John McDonnell | 557 c706 (Link to this contribution)

I assure the House that supporting the amendment is not my cunning plan to get rid of the monarch...

Edward Leigh | 557 cc706-7 (Link to this contribution)

I start by echoing what the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said. He has pu...

Bob Stewart | 557 c707 (Link to this contribution)

It may be much more likely that the heir to the throne would become an atheist. The problem would...

Edward Leigh | 557 c707 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, it might happen that somebody becomes an atheist or an agnostic, or does not want to be a...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c707 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiments about the glories of the Anglican Church. The new clause...

Edward Leigh | 557 cc707-8 (Link to this contribution)

I, too, want to be absolutely clear about that. As I am speaking, people’s minds might be ticking...

John McDonnell | 557 c708 (Link to this contribution)

May I take the hon. Gentleman back to his earlier statement in which he was convinced that a pers...

Edward Leigh | 557 c708 (Link to this contribution)

Well, the Anglican Church is a very relaxed Church, and many Anglican bishops have fairly broad v...

Chris Bryant | 557 c708 (Link to this contribution)

I delight in the relaxed nature of the Anglican communion. I am slightly worried, however, becaus...

Edward Leigh | 557 c709 (Link to this contribution)

It was a joke. I am very loyal to the Saxe- Coburg and Windsor line and a great supporter of the ...

Dan Rogerson | 557 c709 (Link to this contribution)

I take it that the hon. Gentleman has not been on the telephone earlier today to the Duke of Bava...

Edward Leigh | 557 c709 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not a supporter of the Duke of Bavaria.

Michael Ellis | 557 c709 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend mentioned the Archbishop of Canterbury potentially taking over the position of Sup...

Edward Leigh | 557 c709 (Link to this contribution)

This was an idea proffered by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and perhaps ...

Lord Beith | 557 c709 (Link to this contribution)

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman suggests that the Queen has no relationship with the Churc...

Edward Leigh | 557 c710 (Link to this contribution)

If I made a bad or weak point, I willingly withdraw it and accept my right hon. Friend’s superior...

Chris Bryant | 557 c710 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to be pedantic, but the hon. Gentleman has made the same mistake several times in this...

Edward Leigh | 557 cc710-1 (Link to this contribution)

Mr Deputy Speaker, I think you will rule me out of order if I get into the intricacies of baptism...

Paul Flynn | 557 c711 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate, and wonderful to support the amendments tabled by...

Nigel Evans | 557 c711 (Link to this contribution)

Order. The hon. Gentleman says that he will speak briefly. Will he, for the rest of his speech, s...

Paul Flynn | 557 c711 (Link to this contribution)

I am very happy to speak in Middle English:

“Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote

Nigel Evans | 557 c712 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is giving away his age. If he could please keep to common English. Thank you.<...

Paul Flynn | 557 c712 (Link to this contribution)

It is interesting that we have got on to linguistic discrimination. I could stay within the rules...

Chris Bryant | 557 c712 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is completely wrong. In the 13th century, 14th century, 15th century, 16th century...

Paul Flynn | 557 c712 (Link to this contribution)

I am informed otherwise by those who perhaps have an even greater knowledge of this place than ot...

Nigel Evans | 557 c712 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Perhaps we can get back to new clause 1 and amendments 1 and 2.

Paul Flynn | 557 cc712-3 (Link to this contribution)

I will speak about new clause 1, as you rightly say, Mr Deputy Speaker, though these remarks are ...

Michael Ellis | 557 c713 (Link to this contribution)

A moment ago, the hon. Gentleman said that the monarchy had done nothing in the past 100 years fo...

Nigel Evans | 557 c713 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We are now generalising the debate and not really focusing on new clause 1 and amendments ...

Paul Flynn | 557 cc713-4 (Link to this contribution)

I would be delighted, but let me say—although I probably should not—that the contribution of roya...

Dan Rogerson | 557 c714 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making a good point about the Celtic Church—as I did in an intervention—but...

Paul Flynn | 557 c714 (Link to this contribution)

I might address that point later, but the saints—Piran and the rest of them—are celebrated to thi...

Martin Horwood | 557 c714 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman must admit that even the Celtic Church was introduced into these isles by the ...

Paul Flynn | 557 c714 (Link to this contribution)

I look back with some fondness to the Roman empire as a time when we had a common currency in Eur...

Nigel Evans | 557 c715 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I fear that the hon. Gentleman’s speech might be on a loop. He started with this, and I th...

Paul Flynn | 557 c715 (Link to this contribution)

I am delighted to support new clause 1 —it is a minute improvement to the Bill—and I hope that th...

Lord Beith | 557 c715 (Link to this contribution)

I wish to speak to amendments 1 and 2, which raise an important point.

It was a bit much fo...

Bob Stewart | 557 c715 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand it, Her Majesty the Queen has attended a Roman Catholic service at some stage in ...

Lord Beith | 557 c715 (Link to this contribution)

It depends whether one thinks that Her Majesty was reconciled to Rome by that action, which did n...

Edward Leigh | 557 c715 (Link to this contribution)

To reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) through my right hon. Friend, t...

Lord Beith | 557 c716 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps we should not get into a discussion about precisely how the Queen has dealt with these ma...

Michael Ellis | 557 c716 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Lord Beith | 557 c716 (Link to this contribution)

I want to get on to amendments 1 and 2, because I am anxious that we get this right and I am inte...

Mark Durkan | 557 cc716-8 (Link to this contribution)

I have attached my name to amendments 1 and 2, but not to new clause 1. That is not because I par...

Wayne David | 557 cc718-9 (Link to this contribution)

I must begin by saying that I do not have to declare an interest in the debate today, in that I a...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c719 (Link to this contribution)

The regent would assume the role under the Regency Act 1937, which requires that the regent shoul...

Wayne David | 557 c719 (Link to this contribution)

I thought that the hon. Gentleman might come back with that response. However, the difficulty wit...

Chloe Smith | 557 cc719-720 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all hon. Members who have spoken today for their erudite and comprehensive contributions....

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c720 (Link to this contribution)

If my amendments were not within the scope, Mr Speaker would surely not have selected them.

Nigel Evans | 557 c720 (Link to this contribution)

That is absolutely correct. That clarification was right; the amendments are within the scope of ...

Chloe Smith | 557 c720 (Link to this contribution)

I have no intention of disputing your ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker, and that was not the intention o...

Dan Rogerson | 557 c720 (Link to this contribution)

Although I am sympathetic to the aims of the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg...

Chloe Smith | 557 c720 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support for the Bill. I can reassure him and all Members that ...

Lord Soames of Fletching | 557 c721 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that in this particular case, what my hon. Friend the Member for North ...

Chloe Smith | 557 c721 (Link to this contribution)

I deeply respect my right hon. Friend’s intervention and, indeed, his contributions to the debate...

Lord Beith | 557 c721 (Link to this contribution)

I understand the Minister’s argument, but it does not address the fact that, throughout the discu...

Chloe Smith | 557 c722 (Link to this contribution)

I recognise the measured point that right hon. Friend makes. The difficulty or tension here that ...

Edward Leigh | 557 c722 (Link to this contribution)

I do not understand the Minister’s point—that if the two amendments were passed, it could result ...

Chloe Smith | 557 c722 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand the amendments tabled by our hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset, they...

Mark Durkan | 557 c722 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is throwing up a plot line here that even Jeffrey Archer would not try to contrive i...

Chloe Smith | 557 c722 (Link to this contribution)

I am trying to describe a situation where an older child—the Bill affects nothing to do with the ...

Mark Durkan | 557 c722 (Link to this contribution)

If the Minister will forgive me for saying it, this is now sounding a little like “There’s a hole...

Chloe Smith | 557 cc722-3 (Link to this contribution)

During this debate many hon. Members have asked the Government to take account of unintended cons...

Wayne David | 557 c723 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister accept the reality of change in this extremely complex constitutional area? Wha...

Chloe Smith | 557 c723 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the comments of the hon. Gentleman, who brings me back to the point that I do not belie...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c724 (Link to this contribution)

I begin my reply by thanking the Lord President of the Council for saying:

“The Bill does t...

Paul Flynn | 557 cc724-8 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 3, page 1, line 2, leave out

‘born after 28 October 2011’

and...

Chloe Smith | 557 c728 (Link to this contribution)

I will be equally as brief as the hon. Gentleman. I, too, understand that the effect of his amend...

Michael Ellis | 557 c728 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister agree that not only would it be intrinsically unfair to adopt an ex post facto ...

Chloe Smith | 557 cc728-9 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. I note that the different clauses of this Bill do c...

Paul Flynn | 557 c729 (Link to this contribution)

I am disappointed at the limit to the reforming zeal of this Government, who seem to be saying, “...

Tom Brake | 557 cc729-730 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I want to thank the House for the ...

Ben Wallace | 557 c730 (Link to this contribution)

On that issue—my right hon. Friend uses the example of a daughter and a younger son—has he manage...

Tom Brake | 557 c730 (Link to this contribution)

That matter has been brought up at various stages of the Bill. Titles are a matter for the monarc...

Ben Wallace | 557 c730 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way but I believe he might not understand me. Th...

Tom Brake | 557 cc730-1 (Link to this contribution)

On the titles to which my hon. Friend refers, the following might be helpful. The Scottish titles...

Wayne David | 557 cc731-2 (Link to this contribution)

We have had a good debate today, and there were excellent debates last week on Second Reading and...

Lord Soames of Fletching | 557 cc732-3 (Link to this contribution)

I wish to speak very briefly. First, I thank the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon....

Keith Vaz | 557 cc733-4 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) and I wan...

Michael Ellis | 557 c734 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of ...

Keith Vaz | 557 c734 (Link to this contribution)

I accept everything that the hon. Gentleman has said so far, but does he agree with me and other ...

Michael Ellis | 557 cc734-5 (Link to this contribution)

For my part, I prefer to leave the structures alone if we can possibly do so. I think there is so...

Wayne David | 557 c736 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman says the Act is redundant. Would it not be more accurate to say that it is a r...

Michael Ellis | 557 c736 (Link to this contribution)

I do not go so far as to say it is a ridiculous piece of legislation because there is a good reas...

Chris Bryant | 557 cc736-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to follow the hon. Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis). When he talked abo...

Michael Ellis | 557 c737 (Link to this contribution)

May I suggest that Parliament will still make the decision, because it could intercede and put so...

Chris Bryant | 557 c737 (Link to this contribution)

That is not in the Bill. Indeed, the Government have said that it is entirely a matter for the Cr...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c737 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Bryant | 557 c737 (Link to this contribution)

This is waistcoat-to-waistcoat business, isn’t it?

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 557 c737 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman missed out the succession of Mary Tudor, when the Act of Parliament —the Third...

Chris Bryant | 557 c737 (Link to this contribution)

That is absolutely right. It is interesting that we had gone through three Succession Acts, but a...

Ben Wallace | 557 cc737-9 (Link to this contribution)

I had no intention of contributing to this thin Bill’s passage through the House of Commons. In f...

Chloe Smith | 557 c739 (Link to this contribution)

With brevity and the leave of the House, I simply want to confirm that I would be happy to expand...

Chloe Smith | 557 c739 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman not allow me the pleasure of simply saying, “God save the Queen”?

Wayne David | 557 c739 (Link to this contribution)

I have no objection at all—the Minister can say it again if she likes.

My hon. Friend the M...

Lindsay Hoyle | 557 c739 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you for that short intervention.

Chloe Smith | 557 c739 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and commend the Bill to the other place.

Qu...

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