Parliamentary search - Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

735 c1558-624, 1636-58

Session

2010-12

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. As amended in committee.
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords

Legislative scrutiny: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-second report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons

Constitution Select Committee (HL) twenty-first report on Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bach | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) 8: Clause 8, page 5, line 41, leave out ““omitting”” and insert ““adding””

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) In thanking my noble friends Lady Hollis and Lord Howarth for their support, perhaps I may reassure ...

Show all contributions (138)

Lord Beecham | 735 c1650 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a profoundly wise amendment, but nevertheless I beg leave to withdraw it. Amendment...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c1651 (Link to this contribution) 7B: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent review: welfare reform and availa...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1649-50 (Link to this contribution) That certainly increases the case that I am rather lamely seeking to put forward. My noble friend is...

Lord McNally | 735 c1650 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me make it absolutely clear from the start that my spirits are lifted when I see the n...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 735 c1654-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I come in on an amendment that is rather dear to my ...

Lord McNally | 735 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to have an intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I he...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c1651-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I trust that I have an equally wise amendment. For benefit recipients, their families, the...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1653-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been encouraged so fulsomely by the Minister that I rise to contribute briefly to t...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1648 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is being a little optimistic. I am sure he willingly accepts...

Lord McNally | 735 c1647 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Bach | 735 c1649 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend aware that a proportion of that 8 per cent is part of the cut that we made as we ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1641-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is a timely reminder of a potential major problem which already exists but ...

Lord Faulks | 735 c1642-3 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a great deal, and very helpfully, about the role of experts in family proceedings. I d...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1643-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to illustrate the usefulness of experts. This came from a case that I did thr...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1644-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we welcome this opportunity to consider the undoubted contribution that experts make by gi...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1646 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have spoken in the debate for their contributions and, inde...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1646-7 (Link to this contribution) 7A: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Post-commencement review (1) Two years after ...

Lord Bach | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am conscious of the time. I would sooner that this amendment is left to Wednesday.

Lord Bach | 735 c1658 (Link to this contribution) It is only a question for me to decide whether to put my amendment to a vote, but I do not intend to...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1658 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will know that I have been urging this course upon him since the Bill was first draf...

Lord Bach | 735 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) I was not sure whether the Government were minded to adjourn the House now, it being 10 o'clock. Cla...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1656 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord does not move his amendment perhaps I may move my Amendment 10 in the same group.

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1658 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I accept the undertaking from the Minister.

Lord McNally | 735 c1657-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the principles underpinning this Bill include the need to establish very clearly the scope...

Lord McNally | 735 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the House receives this Report, may we have an assurance from the Leader of the Hou...

Lord McNally | 735 c1558 (Link to this contribution) That the Report be now received. That the Report be now received.

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c1561-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like other noble Lords who have spoken, I remain in support of the principle behind this a...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on this amendment. I support it for the reasons so admirably given by the noble...

Baroness Mallalieu | 735 c1562-3 (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading, I supported a very similar amendment, and I would like to support this one today....

Lord Pannick | 735 c1559 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out from ““secure”” to end of line 6 and insert ““(within the res...

Lord Strathclyde | 735 c1559 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I laid out the position at some length on Valentine's Day. The statement is recorded in Ha...

Lord Faulks | 735 c1560-1 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. When it was debated in Committee, the Minister said that he would reflect o...

Lord Pannick | 735 c1559-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, "““Access to justice is a fundamental part of a properly functioning democracy””." That w...

Lord Judd | 735 c1619 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, frankly, it beggars belief that in an area which involves so much social distress and suff...

Lord Goldsmith | 735 c1618-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. The principal reason for supporting the amendment that has been g...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1613 (Link to this contribution) 5: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Annual report (1) As soon as reasonably practi...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am certainly prepared to accept the assurances that the Minister has given. I beg leave ...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is again a perfectly simple amendment, and the Minister anticipated it in his reply t...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1616-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could tell us a little more about when the Government antici...

Baroness Prashar | 735 c1615-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment, which was so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. He moved i...

Lord Bach | 735 c1613-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we come back to a matter that we debated in Committee: the pre-commencement impact assessm...

Lord Bach | 735 c1613 (Link to this contribution) 6: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Pre-commencement impact assessment (1) The Lor...

Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 735 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I encourage the Minister to accept the amendment. I do not think for one moment that it cu...

Lord McNally | 735 c1620-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, where am I to begin? It is probably best to begin with the unknown unknowns. Government ca...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c1620 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I put my name to the amendment for one simple reason: it drew attention to impact assessme...

Lord McNally | 735 c1624 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord knows well, shortly before leaving office, he introduced cuts to crimina...

Lord Bach | 735 c1623-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply and what assurances he was able to give—not satisfact...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1636 (Link to this contribution) 7: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— ““Expert evidence The Lord Chancellor must revie...

Lord Bach | 735 c1624 (Link to this contribution) They were, and they were opposed by the noble Lord, his party and other parties when we made them, b...

Earl of Listowel | 735 c1639-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Beecham—my name is attached to the amendment—and declare my...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1636-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as your Lordships will be aware, the Lord Chancellor hails from Nottingham. He adopts the ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1592 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I waited with bated breath to hear what the noble Lord said because I hoped that his remar...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Baroness accept that my noble friend Lord Macdonald tabled Amendment 39? ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1591 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in what the Minister is saying, but perhaps I might ask him to explain whether ...

Lord McNally | 735 c1591-2 (Link to this contribution) If I go on, all will become clear. We indicated the intended forms of evidence in consultation and ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I regret that I do not. Let me explain why. The framework included in our amendments is the framewor...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) It is the specificity of her amendment that I complain about because it puts into the Bill in stone ...

Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord knows what I was about say. We are on Report.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1593-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, although, of course, it is always a delight to do battle with the noble ...

Lord McNally | 735 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I did not want to interrupt the noble and learned Baroness's peroration, but for the assistance of t...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that helpful indication. I agree with him. I would argue that my amendmen...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1597 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must ensure that the terms on...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1597-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Faulks, a...

Lord Pannick | 735 c1598 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton, said, and I should like to add just t...

Lord Faulks | 735 c1598-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is also attached to the amendment, and I have very little to add to what has alrea...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1599-600 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I concur with everything that has been said. As time goes by the role of the director is l...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1600-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should also like to support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hart of Chilton....

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1601 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree entirely with the points just made by my noble friend. The views of the legal prof...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1605 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord indicated that in his contribution to the debate. I am seeking to reassure noble Lord...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1605 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend always speaks with great persuasiveness, but I cannot see any point that...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1603-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, who it is clear wish to see ““...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1605 (Link to this contribution) What advice did the Law Society and the Bar Council give to the Government about this particular pro...

Baroness Hamwee | 735 c1601 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, comments have been made about perception, and perception is important in this context. I w...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1602 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on this occasion, as in Committee, the House has been treated to the observations of a ver...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1606 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree that the person would become a non-departmental public body in his or her own right. ...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1606 (Link to this contribution) We accept entirely and welcome that the Lord Chancellor will have no power to direct or even guide t...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1605-6 (Link to this contribution) In fairness to my noble friend, it is a good question, which I have asked myself. The answer, as I h...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1606 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I have a number of questions at this stage along with a mou...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1607-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that charming and beguiling presentation of the arguments that he seeks to ...

Lord Hart of Chilton | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) 4: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) In this section ““Minister of the Crown”” has the...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) 4A: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) Before issuing guidance or directions under this...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a short and simple amendment. In replying to the last debate, the Minister indicat...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1606-7 (Link to this contribution) For example, guidance will be given under Clause 9 on exceptional funding, which could relate to cla...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1607 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may have noticed that I have kept quiet on this amendment until now, but I am genuinely...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1607 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness puts her finger on it, as she often does. Yes, it is to be a civil se...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if Amendment 4A were accepted, it would mean that directions and guidance issued by the Lo...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the House has gone some distance in reinforcing the independence of the director, and I tr...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) 4B: Clause 4, page 3, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) Any guidance or directions issued under this sec...

Lord McNally | 735 c1571-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will probably continue for the next five days to make his debating points, but we are...

Lord Bach | 735 c1571 (Link to this contribution) How can it be justice to deprive legal aid from the poorest people in society who need advice on soc...

Lord McNally | 735 c1571 (Link to this contribution) It is not being denied; it is still there. However, in very difficult economic circumstances, we are...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1571 (Link to this contribution) Of course. The whole legal aid system is based on that; you have to conform with certain priorities....

Lord McNally | 735 c1568-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me begin with the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter. The wor...

Lord Bach | 735 c1568 (Link to this contribution) Indeed—I fully concede that; but I have to say that I do not concede the point that I am about to ma...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1568 (Link to this contribution) The comments were not said in the context of Amendment 1, and we will deal with the other matters wh...

Lord Bach | 735 c1567-8 (Link to this contribution) Not quite in the same terms. As I understood it, the noble Lord and some others in Committee opposed...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1567 (Link to this contribution) No, that is not the case. As the noble Lord will recall, I opposed this amendment in Committee in ve...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 735 c1572 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask my noble friend a question, as I am rather confused. To implement this question as...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) The amendment sums up precisely why so many of us entered the law in the first place. I will not tak...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that.

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am surprised to hear the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, suggest that the...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c1563 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we shall look forward very much to hearing the noble Lord, Lord Newton, in a moment. This...

Lord Alton of Liverpool | 735 c1564-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree. The House will...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1563-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for my slowness. I start by saying that I am so far the only person who has sp...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1566-7 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps that is putting it a little too high. However, ever since Magna Carta, access to justice has...

Lord Bach | 735 c1567 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is very little left for me to say from the opposition Front Bench, except that we ar...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1587 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I commend the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott of Foscote. It seems to...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 735 c1586-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate but was moved to do so by not only my noble and...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c1586 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support these amendments, as they show that noble Lords across the House recognise the a...

Lord Scott of Foscote | 735 c1585-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am fully supportive of the spirit behind these amendments. I rise simply to query a smal...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 735 c1590 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may answer that. I suggest that the Minister reads House of Commons Hansard to see what hi...

Lord McNally | 735 c1588-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in a way, this mirrors the previous debate, in that we are discussing how under the Bill w...

Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 735 c1583-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend's amendments. I shall concentrate my remarks on the particular d...

Bishop of Exeter | 735 c1582-3 (Link to this contribution) As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, indicated, my friend the right reverend Prelate th...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1582 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is certainly the case.

Lord Pannick | 735 c1573 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may disagree, but I take the view that because the Government now wish to specify areas...

Lord McNally | 735 c1573 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord not concede that the difference between this Bill and previous Bills is that pr...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1576-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Domestic and Sexual...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1576 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, at end insert— ““( ) In exercising the duty under subsection (1), the L...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1580-1 (Link to this contribution) My name is on this amendment so perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, will permit me to s...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1580 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c1582 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that I am not the only one who wonders about the point eloquently made by the noble and le...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1581-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 39 is in the names of my noble friend Lord Macdonald of River Glaven and me. I a...

Lord Pannick | 735 c1572-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in this important debate. I am also grateful to...

Lord McNally | 735 c1572 (Link to this contribution) As we continue to point out, it is being paid for by taxpayers via my right honourable friend the Ch...

Lord Beecham | 735 c1647 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be blessedly brief. The first of the two amendments in this group is the mirror ima...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1619-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that I may add a brief word about law centres and other advice centres. Taking lega...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not accept that. I accept that it sets in stone the minimum criteria and that additio...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c1593 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness—

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 735 c1566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry that yet another lawyer is speaking, but I want to make a very brief point. In ...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 735 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I cannot quite make it. I shall try again later.

Bishop of Exeter | 735 c1562 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, last week I was asked to give a lecture on perspectives on social justice from the Old Tes...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1612 (Link to this contribution) Again, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has indicated that the purpose of his amendment is th...

Baroness Mallalieu | 735 c1599 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support both this amendment and the amendment that the Government have tabled. For reaso...

Lord McNally | 735 c1591 (Link to this contribution) The forms of evidence that will be accepted for this purpose are not set out in the Bill. Instead, o...

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Disadvantaged

Benefits rules

Costs

Civil servants

Advisory services

Legal profession

Equality

Finance

Legal aid scheme

Domestic abuse