Parliamentary search - Welfare Reform Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

734 c123-76, 190-218

Session

2010-12

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Welfare Reform Bill. As amended in Grand Committee.
Monday, 28 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Legislative scrutiny: Welfare Reform Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-first report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 6 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lord Patel | 734 c173 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 38A is specific to cancer patients. I have already spoken enough about the suffe...

Lord Freud | 734 c176 (Link to this contribution) 39: Clause 51, page 37, line 4, at end insert— ““(2A) The period for which a person is entitled to a...

Show all contributions (137)

Lord Patel | 734 c176 (Link to this contribution) 39A: Clause 51, line 4, leave out ““365 days”” and insert ““a prescribed number of days which must b...

Lord Freud | 734 c190 (Link to this contribution) 40: Clause 51, page 37, line 5, after ““(1)”” insert ““or (2A)”” Amendment 40 agreed. Amendment 40...

Lord Strasburger | 734 c169 (Link to this contribution) Do the same figures apply to a couple who own their own property?

Lord Freud | 734 c169 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as noble Lords know, we have two systems of housing support. We have housing benefit for t...

Lord Patel | 734 c169-70 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his response. I could pick up on each of the points that have been made a...

Lord Patel | 734 c173 (Link to this contribution) 38A: Clause 51, page 36, line 36, at end insert ““except— (a) where a person is receiving treatment ...

Lord Freud | 734 c168-9 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, there is nothing in any amendment or proposal to stop people going back to work should they...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c190 (Link to this contribution) 40A: Clause 51, page 37, line 13, at end insert— ““(d) does not include any days in which a claim in...

Lord Freud | 734 c165-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before we consider this group of amendments, it is important to remember the context withi...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 734 c167 (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred to the position of two-thirds of cancer patients. Is that before or after the ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c163-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we support each of the amendments tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. As we ...

Lord Strasburger | 734 c165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fully support the Government’s efforts to address the huge deficit which they inherited....

Lord Wigley | 734 c162 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we went into this matter in considerable detail in Committee and the Minister withstood th...

Lord May of Oxford | 734 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suspect that others might share my feeling that in some of the last exchanges the discus...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 734 c162 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend for allowing me to intervene. Having listened to the debate th...

Lord Blencathra | 734 c162 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is correct. The last amendment would cost around £70 million, and no doubt the Gover...

Lord Freud | 734 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) The figure that I quoted is the existing one. I shall come straight on to the cancer issue because i...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c127-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by also thanking the Minister for Amendment 43 and wishing him a happy new year. I...

Lord Freud | 734 c129-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, picking up the point of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about the discrepancy between Amend...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 734 c127 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall make a brief intervention in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. It is im...

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 734 c127 (Link to this contribution) I just want to thank the Minister for bringing forward Amendment 43 and the other government amendme...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c124-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 43, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, and I also wish to congratul...

Lord Freud | 734 c123-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak in support of the amendments tabled by the Government in relation to Clauses 51 an...

Lord Patel | 734 c124 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendment 42, to which the Minister has just referred. Before I start, perhaps ...

Lord Freud | 734 c123 (Link to this contribution) 33: Schedule 3, page 126, line 3, leave out ““and (2)”” and insert ““(2), (2A), (3) and (4)””

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c137-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendments 45 and 46, to which my name is attached. The purpose of the amendment...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 734 c139-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have also added my name to Amendment 45, which was so ably spoken to by the noble Lord, ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c140 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, those of us who sat through the entire Committee stage and have listened to and contribute...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c130 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the Minister. The point that I was trying to get across was in the exam...

Lord Freud | 734 c130-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sympathetic to this issue—one has to be. Clearly, we are continuing the whole time with improve...

Lord Freud | 734 c131-2 (Link to this contribution) 34: Schedule 3, page 126, line 3, at end insert— ““( ) section 1B(1) (as inserted by section (Furthe...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c132 (Link to this contribution) 36A: Clause 51, page 36, line 31, after ““2007”” insert ““, and subject to section 52,””

Earl of Listowel | 734 c134-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I put my name to Amendments 36A and 46, to which my noble friend has just spoken so eloque...

Lord Patel | 734 c135-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to my Amendment 45, which takes a much more radical view and proposes leaving out ...

Lord May of Oxford | 734 c145 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of exposing my lack of full comprehension of this, I have been listening to the debate a...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c144 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt again but in Grand Committee the cumulative saving during that period was £1...

Lord Freud | 734 c145 (Link to this contribution) The figure that is closest to the one in Grand Committee is the one relating to Amendment 46, which ...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c142 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that many of these people may receive some income-related benefit but not at the...

Lord Freud | 734 c142-3 (Link to this contribution) To be absolutely honest, unwinding the effects of the first full year, which will be in 2017, is qui...

Lord Freud | 734 c141-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start with government Amendment 45A, on which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, ended his r...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c144 (Link to this contribution) It is a dilemma. I think that the entire House sympathises with the noble Lord. Many of us have been...

Lord Freud | 734 c144 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think that we ought to spend a huge amount of time on this—it is really difficult...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c143 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that there may be resources available to that group but that they are not r...

Lord Freud | 734 c143-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, where they have other resources, as they move into young adulthood, clearly they have to b...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c146-7 (Link to this contribution) If I may say so, that brings me back to the point that I made earlier. We need to find a way of maki...

Lord Freud | 734 c146 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can I make it absolutely clear that contributory benefits per se are not vulnerable becaus...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c146 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for his reply to the various amendments, and many Members of the Hous...

Lord Freud | 734 c146 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, not really. This is a prime area in which we have automaticity without any payment system....

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c145-6 (Link to this contribution) I think that we all understand that, but the Minister is praying this EU ruling in aid of his desire...

Lord Freud | 734 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am being dragged a long way away from my brief. This is a widespread concern that runs t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c145 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, is the ruling in question a concern only in relation to the youth con...

Lord Freud | 734 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a pretty good Socratic debate on the welfare Bill for some time. I hope that I...

Lord Freud | 734 c150 (Link to this contribution) 37: Clause 51, page 36, line 33, at end insert ““by virtue of the first and second conditions set ou...

Lord Patel | 734 c150 (Link to this contribution) 38: Clause 51, page 36, line 34, leave out ““365 days”” and insert ““a prescribed number of days whi...

Lord Patel | 734 c150-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 38A and 39A. These amendments oppose the introduction of ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c160 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief and respond, if I may, to the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, who o...

Lord Blencathra | 734 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is with some trepidation that I intervene briefly in this debate in view of the learned...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c161 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, almost everything passed in this House has financial implications. The House of Commons is...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c155-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand that short speeches are the order of the day so that we may make progress. I ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c160 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make a very brief point in support of the amendments. The Government say that ti...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c157-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the time-limiting of ESA is one of the most emotive issues in the Bill, as we have heard. ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c203 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was the person who drafted Amendment 36A. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, clearly intr...

Lord Freud | 734 c203-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me read out what I said in my speech. I said that I confirm that the Government see Am...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c203 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me—are we not dealing here with Amendment 46, which the Government have accepted is conseque...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c204 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord does not make that happen just by asserting it. One amendment is consequent...

Lord Freud | 734 c201-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, my Lords, we would like to take this to a vote. Division on Amendment 45A Contents 132; Not-C...

Viscount Ullswater | 734 c203 (Link to this contribution) To the contrary, ““Not Content””.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c203 (Link to this contribution) 46: Clause 52, leave out Clause 52 and insert the following new Clause— ““Condition relating to yout...

Viscount Ullswater | 734 c203 (Link to this contribution) The Question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say, ““Content...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) Before whoever it is who is speaking sits down, I should say that I think that the Minister is makin...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) That has been helpful, as has been the intervention of my noble friend Lady Hollis, and I think that...

Lord Freud | 734 c201 (Link to this contribution) 41: Clause 51, page 37, line 14, after ““(1)”” insert ““or (2A)”” Amendment 41 agreed. Amendments ...

Lord Freud | 734 c201 (Link to this contribution) 43: After Clause 51, insert the following new Clause— ““Further entitlement after time-limiting (1) ...

Lord Freud | 734 c201 (Link to this contribution) 45A: Clause 52, leave out Clause 52 and insert the following new Clause— ““Condition relating to you...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c201 (Link to this contribution) This amendment was in the same group as the amendment on which the Government were defeated but runs...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) That was an extremely pertinent question. If in essence we can deal with this in due course when fur...

Lord Freud | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) We are looking at the sickness absence review process, which is what this is about, and that is a su...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not made this easy. I have been trying as best I can to avoid having a vote on this...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend will allow me, would the Minister be content if we were to introduce such a power...

Lord Freud | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) I think I will owe noble Lords a letter. Thank you very much.

Lord Freud | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) Without having those in my ever helpful Box right behind me to respond to that—I hope that they are ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c200 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister could write to us.

Lord Freud | 734 c199 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think that I can do that. We need to take a view now on this. All I can say is th...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c199 (Link to this contribution) Does the Bill contain power by regulation, or would the Minister welcome an amendment to introduce i...

Lord Freud | 734 c199 (Link to this contribution) I am clearly not in a position, and it would take more than a couple of weeks to get into a position...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c199 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, but I wonder whether the Minister could say one more thing now so that we do not have t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c198 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has advised us of an extremely helpful point. Would it follow that if the assessment ph...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c196 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply and all noble Lords who have contributed to this short and rathe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c197 (Link to this contribution) Tagging on three months is not the purpose of the amendment or of anyone who has spoken to this. The...

Lord Freud | 734 c198 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am in a difficult position here. My view on the assessment phase is not going to have de...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in Grand Committee the question of the assessment period got a bit lost because there were...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c195 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may make a small point. Were claimants who were receiving ESA last April told by...

Lord Freud | 734 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it was a reasonably well publicised announcement by the Chancellor. There was no formal pr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to the other amendment in our name in this group. Perhaps more than any...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to make a brief contribution to this debate because we have had a busy day and I th...

Baroness Sherlock | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) I asked specifically whether the Government had sought or received any legal advice about whether or...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c215 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the letter is not yet in draft. If it is possible to do something along the lines that the...

Baroness Sherlock | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) I shall look forward to it.

Lord De Mauley | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may come to that in a moment.

Lord De Mauley | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Kirkwood asked about the structure of what is being transferred. The current So...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord would not. I do not think that we can say that it is AME, in that case...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) I would not go that far.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c217-8 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in support of the amendment, in particular the noble...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) Historically it has been AME. The funding for the year 2012-13 will be the funding that is transferr...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c212 (Link to this contribution) I accept that agreement—excellent.

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 734 c212 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to the noble Baroness, that is in the next group. We are going to stop on this gr...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c211 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 50ZC and I will try to speak extremely briefly in view of the...

Baroness Sherlock | 734 c211 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two specific questions for the Minister. Following on from my noble friend Lady Hol...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c210-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support my noble friend’s amendment. The whole point about the Social Fund is that...

Bishop of Bath and Wells | 734 c210 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is often said that we read the world from the position we occupy in it. In particular, ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c209-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remember there being considerable concern in this area upstairs in Committee. Having lis...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c215 (Link to this contribution) Obviously this letter has not yet been sent; I presume that it has been drafted. Would the Minister ...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I absolutely understand what the noble Baroness’s Amendment 50 is trying to achieve. I ass...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 734 c212-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think I have the right group. As we have heard, unless this Bill is amended, it will fun...

Lord Freud | 734 c204 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have thought more deeply and accept that the amendment is consequential.

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 734 c204 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is somewhat unprecedented, and I am trying to be helpful here. The House is in danger...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c205 (Link to this contribution) 50: Clause 69, page 54, line 8, at end insert ““providing those amounts are ring-fenced for the purp...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 734 c204-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that moment’s reflection, which does great service to your Lordships' Hou...

Lord Freud | 734 c204 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot understand this. I was extremely clear, and have been really clear all the way th...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 734 c207-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. When I first read the Bill, it had been my intention to put down ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c205-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that this debate will be a bit more straightforward than what we have just been dis...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c208-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to make a contribution to the debate as someone who was happy to co-sponsor ...

Lord Blair of Boughton | 734 c208 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a Cross-Bencher who does not necessarily spend all day in this House but I have been ...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c132-4 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 36A is a paving amendment for Amendment 46, which is consequential upon it. Our aim with t...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c160-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall respond to that. What I said was that noble Lords may think that we will go into p...

Lord Freud | 734 c194-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall leap straight in on the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the as...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 734 c168 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves on, I wonder if I could ask for some clarification. When he talked about t...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c126 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to make a brief contribution to this debate. Anyone who was part of the colle...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c140-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak in support of Amendments 45 and 46. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, has just sai...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c157 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, local health charities and services are also very concerned about the impact of time-limit...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c199 (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble Lord’s dilemma; he is creating a bit of a dilemma for us. Can we at least agr...

Lord Freud | 734 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to reopen this matter at Third Reading on the basis of things that I will ha...

Lord Freud | 734 c196-7 (Link to this contribution) Let me clarify that—I hoped I had. Clearly you may not know what category of ESA you are in but you ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c216 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister therefore saying that if local authorities represent that there is increased need ba...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c204 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, does not wish to appear to be subverting the view of the ...

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