Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 28 November 2011, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Freud.

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords committee stage seventeenth day. Clauses 109 to 141 agreed to, clauses 111, 113, 126, 128, 139 with amendments. Schedule 13 agreed to. Schedule 14 agreed to with amendments. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 114). Grand Committee held in Committee Room 4A.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

733 c1-82GC

Session

2010-12

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 75-EN also published.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Seventeenth report on: Armed Forces Bill; Welfare Reform Bill; Scotland Bill; Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill - Government response. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) My issue is that there are no stakeholders as there are in other types of legislation. My argument h...

Lord Freud | 733 c38GC (Link to this contribution) It never failed in the past. They also underplay their ability to gather the views of stakeholders t...

Show all contributions (153)

Lord De Mauley | 733 c57-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall come back to that if I may. With the right support in place to help parents collaborate bet...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c61GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know other noble Lords have attached their name to this amendment but I crave the indulg...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I was going through the impact analysis statement on the changes in CMEC and I cannot find the figur...

Lord Freud | 733 c15GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must make this absolutely clear—it is my third go at this. An overpayment happens when s...

Lord Freud | 733 c10GC (Link to this contribution) ““Negligence”” and ““reasonable steps”” are legally bound words. There is a huge case law about what...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c10GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord help me? Do the penalties accrue to the department or to the consolidated fund?

Lord Freud | 733 c30-2GC (Link to this contribution) 107B: After Clause 124, insert the following new Clause— ““Unlawful disclosure of information suppli...

Lord Ramsbotham | 733 c20-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in many respects this amendment, which stems from the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust and 16 other or...

Lord Freud | 733 c37GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what we are designing here is a massive undertaking. I know that I set a considerable chal...

Lord Freud | 733 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not alone, I know, in acknowledging the vast knowledge of my noble friend Lord Kirkwo...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c37GC (Link to this contribution) I think we would all accept that there is a difference between this Bill and, for example, a pension...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether I am more frightened now than I was previously. I accept that there is a capac...

Lord Freud | 733 c38GC (Link to this contribution) I accept the point. In practice, we face lobbyists and stakeholders, although one could argue that t...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 733 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is also on this amendment. My noble friend has explained the six-month rule. I wou...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have a good deal of sympathy for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and th...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c40-3GC (Link to this contribution) It feels like 2001. I beg the Committee’s pardon. It should have been 2011, and it may even be 2012 ...

Baroness Sherlock | 733 c43-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to support and speak specifically to Amendment 113B, to which my name is attached. ...

Baroness Tyler of Enfield | 733 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 113B. In so doing, I declare an interest. I am currently...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c46-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, shall speak in support of Amendment 113B, although what I have to say is also rele...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c48-50GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the speeches that we have heard so far have been extremely powerful and I very much suppor...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 733 c50GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for not being here the whole time. I had to chair quite an important meeting o...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c39GC (Link to this contribution) 113B: Clause 131, page 101, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) After section 1 of the Child Support Act 1...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the hour and the fact that we are turning to a completely fresh, but very important,...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 733 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) 113DA: Clause 131, page 101, line 19, at end insert— ““( ) In section 6 of the Child Maintenance and...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 733 c60-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in view of the Prime Minister’s speech, to which the noble Baronesses referred, I thought ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister wants the Committee to make progress. I have to confess that I am disapp...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords. I shall come to that, if I may, in a moment. The purpose of the ““gateway”” clause is...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c57GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain the difference between what he has just described and the current options ...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c53-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it might be helpful, if noble Lords will allow, if I spend a little time setting the scene...

Baroness Sherlock | 733 c56GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for explaining what will happen to the options service. I confess that I have h...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 733 c50GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. I will wait.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c50-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for introducing this group of amendments and acknowledge his ...

Baroness Sherlock | 733 c65-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I convey my thanks—and I suspect those of many other noble Lords around me—to the noble an...

Bishop of Blackburn | 733 c62-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his amendment and for this group of amendm...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 733 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was more than happy to put my name to this amendment because the noble and learned Lord,...

Lord Wigley | 733 c65GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in what seems to be one of...

Lord Skelmersdale | 733 c65GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble and learned friend has produced a very cunning amendment indeed. It is cunning be...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c61GC (Link to this contribution) Roxburgh and Berwickshire.

Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c61GC (Link to this contribution) Right.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 733 c61GC (Link to this contribution) I think also the noble Lord, Lord Wigley.

Lord Newton of Braintree | 733 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley—he was lurking—and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. I am sorry. I had l...

Baroness Tyler of Enfield | 733 c67GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like briefly to add a few comments to those that have been made so powerfully arou...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c66-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, just for completeness I shall speak to Amendment 113E. I will be grateful if the Minister ...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c69-70GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by addressing my noble and learned friend’s Amendment 113DA. This would exempt fro...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c67-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like all noble Lords, I am indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, for tablin...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c70GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I take the general point that they should not come in immediately. We are in fact proposin...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c70GC (Link to this contribution) Could I therefore ask the Minister a question to which his noble friend responded on a previous amen...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c71-3GC (Link to this contribution) I agree that that is a good question. The Government will accept that making a phone call to the gat...

Baroness Sherlock | 733 c70-1GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister thinks it will be very hard to get evidence as to how an applicant had made reasonable ...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c73GC (Link to this contribution) I shall include that in the letter I will send out. In the light of what I have said, I hope that I ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c73GC (Link to this contribution) That would be helpful, but could the Minister also indicate the extent to which those powers are goi...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c74GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I still have the will and resolve to continue. Amendment 113G seeks to get fast access to ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c74GC (Link to this contribution) 113G: Clause 132, page 101, line 38, at end insert— ““(c) the non-resident parent has not agreed to ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 733 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) This is Grand Committee and therefore there is no other option open to me at present. However, I mus...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief. I have a question that we should have asked on the previous group of amendments. W...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c76GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble friend will expand on one detail. The amendment seeks an expeditious response withi...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c75-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, turning first to my noble friend’s Amendment 113G, the Government are determined to ensure...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c75GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be brief in saying that we support the thrust of each of these amendments.

Lord De Mauley | 733 c76GC (Link to this contribution) Given what I said in the debate on charging, I would prefer to write to the noble Baroness about tha...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c76GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in answer to my noble friend’s question, given the admonishment of my noble friend Lord Fr...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c77GC (Link to this contribution) 114B: Schedule 13, page 151, line 34, at end insert— ““( ) The Commission shall advise Ministers on ...

Lord Geddes | 733 c77GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for my voice. I have nearly lost it. Schedule 13 : Social Mobility and Child ...

Lord Freud | 733 c78-80GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak first to Amendments 114B, 114C and 114D, which would require the Government t...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c77-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am going to apologise because I think that I now stand between the Committee and what I gather is ...

Lord Geddes | 733 c76-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a misprint in the Marshalled List. Amendment 114, which is to insert a new clause...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for the offer of a letter and I am happy to withdraw the amendment ...

Lord Geddes | 733 c77GC (Link to this contribution) Again, there is a technicality here in that Clause 136, on which the question will be that it stands...

Lord Freud | 733 c77GC (Link to this contribution) 114: After Clause 133, insert the following new Clause— ““Recovery of child support maintenance by d...

Lord Freud | 733 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) 115: Schedule 14, page 173, leave out lines 5 to 10 116: Schedule 14, page 173, leave out lines 21...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c80GC (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord withdrew his amendment and said that he had no choice in Grand Committee....

Lord Freud | 733 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) 118ZA: Clause 139, page 104, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) section (Calculation of working tax credit...

Lord Freud | 733 c82GC (Link to this contribution) 118B: Clause 140, page 104, line 16, at end insert— ““( ) section (Calculation of working tax credit...

Lord Skelmersdale | 733 c4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has called attention to Clause 113, because...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c4-6GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment. Following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, sai...

Lord Freud | 733 c1GC (Link to this contribution) 104: Clause 111, page 78, line 12, at end insert— ““(2) In section 190 of that Act (parliamentary co...

Baroness Drake | 733 c1GC (Link to this contribution) 104ZA: Clause 113, page 78, line 24, leave out from beginning to end of line 25 on page 79

Baroness Drake | 733 c1-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendment 104AA. In Clause 113, we see the Government’s intention to...

Baroness Drake | 733 c14-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. Perhaps I may address some of the points that he raised because I still feel d...

Lord Freud | 733 c14GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, there are always difficult and special cases. I suspect that an old lady would not be elimi...

Lord Freud | 733 c15GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me make this absolutely clear. It is the other way round. You can charge a civil penal...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c12GC (Link to this contribution) Is that also the case with any other penalty, not just the civil penalty? Is it a benefits sanction?...

Lord Freud | 733 c12GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that is what is happening with overpayments, which are a separate category from ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c14GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps that would not work. For example, in two side-by-side authorities, a family with two sibling...

Lord Freud | 733 c12-4GC (Link to this contribution) We absolutely will not do that. The noble Baroness drew a comparison with current levels of JSA usag...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c11-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thought it was very revealing when the Minister said the answers are yes/no. Most of these questio...

Lord Touhig | 733 c12GC (Link to this contribution) In my experience over years in the other place of dealing with cases in which people had been overpa...

Lord Freud | 733 c12GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we disagree on this. It would not be reasonable where there is clearly a lot of ...

Lord Freud | 733 c18GC (Link to this contribution) No, I meant a cluster of mistakes. When we begin to see a cluster of mistakes around a particular se...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c17GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his clarification about clusters. How many £50 fines would there need to be...

Lord Freud | 733 c17GC (Link to this contribution) Let me quickly pick up three issues. First, when I talked about clusters, I meant that, where there ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c17GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the power exists for tax credits but not for other benefits. At a briefing session, I a...

Lord Touhig | 733 c17GC (Link to this contribution) Could my noble friend say—perhaps in response to the Minister’s answer to the noble Countess, Lady M...

Baroness Drake | 733 c16-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am still not persuaded. I will stay with my point; I still remain concerned about targets. The Min...

Lord Freud | 733 c15-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in practice it will depend very much on the circumstances. Clearly, if one had a blanket r...

Countess of Mar | 733 c15GC (Link to this contribution) Let me get this absolutely clear. The department finds that there has been an error. Does it then te...

Baroness Drake | 733 c15GC (Link to this contribution) That is my point. If civil penalties and overpayments are inextricably linked, you would not award a...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c18GC (Link to this contribution) I accept and quite understand that, but the point is that, before the department realises that there...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I warn the Minister that that is one of the biggest elephant traps he is setting himself in the enti...

Lord Freud | 733 c8-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 104A and 104B, tabled in my name, are similar in intention to an earlier sugges...

Lord Freud | 733 c9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have to make clear that we are taking powers to do this. We do not have to use them.

Lord Freud | 733 c9GC (Link to this contribution) Let me make this absolutely clear. There were concerns that we would have a kind of speed camera sit...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend gives some very good examples of how easy it might be to make mistakes, pa...

Baroness Meacher | 733 c7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the excellent contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. I am sure th...

Lord Touhig | 733 c6-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lady Drake has made some very powerful points this afternoon, which the Go...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lady Drake has opened an important probe on these provisions, and other no...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 733 c7-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to add much to what has been so well said already in support of the amendmen...

Lord Freud | 733 c11GC (Link to this contribution) It is very relevant. One of the things that we are going to be monitoring as we look at the system i...

Baroness Meacher | 733 c11GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that if something is complex, you will not have negligence. Does he accept that wh...

Lord Freud | 733 c11GC (Link to this contribution) Let us not bargain. It is not a bad suggestion. One of the things we want to do—

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c11GC (Link to this contribution) Oh!

Countess of Mar | 733 c10GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord referred to new Section 115C(1)(b), which states: "““the person fails to take reasona...

Lord Freud | 733 c10-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that it will be as simple as the dentist analogy. The whole point of introducing un...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the point is that, on any reasonable analogy, the simpler it is for the individual to make...

Lord Freud | 733 c10GC (Link to this contribution) That is as I would expect from the noble Lord. It is such a wicked question that I am baffled as to ...

Lord Freud | 733 c27GC (Link to this contribution) I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Ramsbotham | 733 c27GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not quite certain what we were going to end up with after all that. I was very grate...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) 107A: After Clause 124, insert the following new Clause— ““Information-sharing between Secretary of ...

Lord Freud | 733 c27GC (Link to this contribution) No.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c27GC (Link to this contribution) Then who will get the money? Will it be the local authority or the department?

Lord Freud | 733 c27GC (Link to this contribution) When I have worked out the various recipients to the main fund and written, I will let the noble Bar...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c27GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you.

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 733 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, for moving the amendment. It is never quite as wel...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c28-30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments deals with the sharing of data between the DWP and the Crown Pros...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that local authorities and the department very sensibly share information on the ...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c30GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her questions. In order to hasten things, may I write to her...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c32GC (Link to this contribution) 113AA: After Clause 129, insert the following new Clause— ““Social Security Advisory Committee In se...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c32-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester....

Lord Freud | 733 c32GC (Link to this contribution) 108: Clause 126, page 96, line 20, leave out second ““prescribed”” and insert ““relevant social secu...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c32GC (Link to this contribution) 112A: Clause 128, page 99, leave out lines 27 to 30 Amendment 112A agreed. Clause 128, as amended,...

Lord De Mauley | 733 c30GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I think I will include that in the written answer. Amendment 1...

Lord Freud | 733 c18GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I buy the point about the delicacy of the run-in. I have a tool with which to monitor it v...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c18GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very happy for the Minister to write to us on this rather than to spend more time tod...

Lord Freud | 733 c18GC (Link to this contribution) I will need to write.

Baroness Drake | 733 c18-9GC (Link to this contribution) On the clusters point, clusters will presumably arise by type of error or a particular demographic o...

Lord Freud | 733 c19GC (Link to this contribution) 104A: Clause 113, page 79, line 8, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ““(4) A penalty imposed unde...

Lord Freud | 733 c19GC (Link to this contribution) 104B: Clause 113, page 80, line 5, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ““(4) A penalty imposed unde...

Lord Freud | 733 c19GC (Link to this contribution) 105: Clause 113, page 80, line 16, at end insert— ““(2) In section 190 of that Act (parliamentary co...

Lord Ramsbotham | 733 c20GC (Link to this contribution) 107: After Clause 113, insert the following new Clause— ““Means inquiry before sanctions, penalties ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 733 c23GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is, in my view, a principled reason for having something of this kind. However, I am...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 733 c23GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have happily added my name to this amendment because I think it is very important. The n...

Lord Freud | 733 c24-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree that it is right and proper that a decision-maker gives full consideration to all ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c25GC (Link to this contribution) I trust this information is reliable, but in today’s press there were quite a lot of stories about h...

Baroness Sherlock | 733 c23-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to add just one point for the Minister to think about in his response. The no...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c24GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as has been said by my noble friend Lady Sherlock, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has ma...

Lord Freud | 733 c26GC (Link to this contribution) I would be utterly delighted to invite noble Lords, but not too many. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord R...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 733 c26GC (Link to this contribution) If there are invitations floating around, could I add my name to the list? Two things worry me that ...

Lord Freud | 733 c25-6GC (Link to this contribution) The answer to the first question is that interest is not ticking. On the second question, I share t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 733 c26GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, agrees, might we join in with those discussions or ref...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 733 c26GC (Link to this contribution) Sorry, if somebody puts the same information into their applications for universal credit and for lo...

Lord Freud | 733 c26GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, my Lords. I think, actually, I withdraw my offer of a meeting, because, given the level of inte...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 733 c26GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I reassure my noble friend the Minister that I am not asking to come to this meeting, but,...

Subjects

Children

Disclosure of information

Appeals

Benefits rules

Deductions

Arrears

Child Support Agency

Fraud

Fees and charges

ICT

Domestic abuse