Welfare Reform Bill

My Lords, I convey my thanks—and I suspect those of many other noble Lords around me—to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for having brought this before the Committee and having done so in so eloquent, powerful and almost irrefutable a way. I want to add only two things. One is a question to the Minister. We have talked a lot in this Committee about behavioural effects. I want to understand the point of this charging. If we think it through rationally for a moment, if the aim of the new system is to encourage absent parents to pay up, the logical thing to do would be to charge them if they do not. Why then would one charge the parent with care? The only possible reason to do that would be to deter them applying to the CSA in the first place, because as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay learned, explained so clearly, the parent with care can do nothing to affect the outcome the Government say they want. Therefore to penalise her for failing to do so would obviously not be fair, so that cannot be the aim. Will the Government please explain to us what is the aim of charging the parent with care? I want to discuss two other things. I want to share a quote I found from a former Minister who said: "““Government too must be concerned to see parents accept responsibility for their children. For, even though marriages may break down, parenthood is for life. Legislation can’t make irresponsible parents responsible, but it can and must ensure that absent parents pay maintenance for their children””." I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, will recognise that that was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, when she was Prime Minister, in July 1990 to the 300 Group at the Savoy hotel. She went on to explain why the Government were setting up the CSA in the first place and pointed out that only one-third of lone parents were getting any maintenance at all and that most of them were not getting it regularly, as I was aware from other sources. We have all heard lone parents say that if they could do private arrangements they would. The whole point of the agency is to deal with people who cannot make private arrangements. Therefore, if charging them 12 per cent of the money that currently goes to children and handing that over instead to the state does not deter them, what will? I must in all conscience speak briefly to the amendment in my name in this group, which is specifically about exempting parents with care who have experience of domestic violence. I hope that this amendment will never be necessary because I hope that nobody in this position will be charged in any case. I simply give the Minister the opportunity to set out in his response some of the questions that have yet to be asked. The amendment was tabled to do three things. First, the Government have previously said that they will exempt from the initial charge parents who have experienced domestic violence. Can the Minister explain how the Government intend to define victims of domestic violence? I commend to him the definition in the amendment, which is the one used widely across government. If he does not like it, perhaps he could share another. Secondly, will he explain—I am happy if he writes to me before Report—what parents with care will have to do, show or prove to obtain an exemption? Finally, will he explain why an exemption will be from the initial charge only and not from the charge for using the collection service? Having said all that, I hope very much that this is not necessary and that the considerable wisdom expressed around this Committee prevails.