Parliamentary search - Coroners and Justice Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

712 c1184-229,1241-60

Session

2008-09

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Coroners and Justice Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 33-EN also published.
Wednesday, 25 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c1246 (Link to this contribution) On behalf of my noble and learned friend, who has been called away on important domestic business, I...

Lord Bach | 712 c1258 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 191AZA 191AZA: After Clause 125, insert the following new Clause— "Confiscation orders Ap...

Show all contributions (114)

Lord Bach | 712 c1258-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the new clauses that are inserted by Amendments 191AZA and 191AZB amend Section 11 of the ...

Lord Henley | 712 c1259 (Link to this contribution) At this late hour, I think I can say that that sounds satisfactory, but I want to look carefully at ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1259-60 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 191AZB 191AZB: After Clause 125, insert the following new Clause— "Appeals against certai...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1246 (Link to this contribution) Clause 115: Promoting awareness Amendment 191ZA 191ZA: Clause 115, page 72, line 10, leave out "ma...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his replies. I am glad that he is able to accept one element. In the mean t...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1246-8 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 191ZA refers to a requirement for the council to promote matters relating to sentencing, t...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1243 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to other amendments in the group, Amendments 191ZE to 191ZG. Amendments 191ZE and 191Z...

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1243 (Link to this contribution) I follow my noble and learned friend in supporting Amendment 191. Indeed, the Minister of Justice ha...

Lord Bach | 712 c1244-6 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments and, indeed, the next two groups deal with the functions of the council in ...

Lord Henley | 712 c1244 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak only on Amendment 190 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1242 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the amendment put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. I am co...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) I can deal with this very shortly, mainly because I have left my notes behind. The amendment may see...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1256 (Link to this contribution) I am, of course, aware of the fact, although I did not deal with it in my speech, that there was an ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1255 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is intended to abolish sentences of imprisonment or detention for public protection, c...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 712 c1254-5 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches, of course, support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Goodhart. The initial ...

Baroness Stern | 712 c1253-4 (Link to this contribution) I, too, very much support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. Indeterminacy is a particu...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c1252-3 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, to which I readily put my name, because I could not agree more with every w...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1250-2 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that Amendment 191A is supported by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I am quite surpr...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1250 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 191A 191A: After Clause 123, insert the following new Clause— "Imprisonment and detention...

Lord Bach | 712 c1250 (Link to this contribution) Clause 122: Interpretation of this Chapter Amendment 191ZL 191ZL: Clause 122, page 74, line 31, at...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1249 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply which fills me with great disappointment. I feel that he has not ...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 712 c1248-9 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments relates to the duty on the council to promote an awareness of matters relat...

Lord Bach | 712 c1256-7 (Link to this contribution) The build-up of the IPP population has been broadly in line with projections. Offenders who have rec...

Lord Bach | 712 c1223-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Her noble friend Lord Dholakia expressed even greater support f...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1223 (Link to this contribution) I stand by what I said. Indeed, I stand shoulder to shoulder with the noble and learned Lord, Lord W...

Lord Bach | 712 c1224-6 (Link to this contribution) I think our view is that it is slightly stricter, but I place the emphasis on the word "slightly". I...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. What is his position? Is he saying that the proposed...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1226 (Link to this contribution) May I put a very simple question to the Minister about the rationale that underlies Part 4? Is he sa...

Lord Woolf | 712 c1219-20 (Link to this contribution) I fear if I had not interrupted, I might have lost my chance to say a few words. Clause 111 causes m...

Lord Henley | 712 c1220-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble and learned Lord for intervening before him. Where we speak in the batting ...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1220 (Link to this contribution) The difference between the three tests is clearly set out in Lord Justice Gage’s report. They saw a ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1223 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for introducing the debate. I also thank ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 712 c1221-3 (Link to this contribution) Sentencing guidelines can be extremely helpful, particularly for the young tyro sentencer who does n...

Lord Bach | 712 c1228-9 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 189B and 189C 189B: Clause 111, page 69, line 15, leave out "contain provision by virtue...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1228 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister has accepted that this test is only slightly more strict than the existing...

Lord Bach | 712 c1228 (Link to this contribution) I do not think I can do better than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in the way he described ...

Lord Woolf | 712 c1227-8 (Link to this contribution) May I make it clear that, if there are guidelines, I would expect the judiciary to follow the guidel...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1226-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am having some difficulty in understanding this. I a...

Lord Bach | 712 c1226 (Link to this contribution) It will be expected that the guidelines are followed unless it is not in the interests of justice as...

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I—

Lord Bach | 712 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the noble Earl would be pleased if that is the way the judiciary responded.

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way and I appreciate his great care in responding to these questions...

Lord Bach | 712 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I hope that what I said was not "a bit" more, but was "slightly". That is our view and I think it wa...

Lord Colwyn | 712 c1194 (Link to this contribution) If Amendment 187BB is agreed to, I will be unable to call Amendment 187BC owing to pre-emption. Ame...

Lord Bach | 712 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 187BB 187BB: Schedule 13, page 149, line 35, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and ins...

Lord Bach | 712 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 188AA and 188AB 188AA: Schedule 13, page 150, line 23, at end insert— "President of the ...

Lord Dholakia | 712 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 188 188: Schedule 13, page 150, line 20, at end insert— "( ) the rehabilitation of offend...

Lord Henley | 712 c1194-6 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 188CA, I wish to speak also to Amendment 188CC. I understand that we will also b...

Lord Henley | 712 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 188CA 188CA: Clause 106, page 65, line 20, leave out paragraph (b)

Lord Woolf | 712 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for rising again, but I think that the importance of what the Sentencing Guidelines Coun...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) If I may respond, I know we have a secondary rewriting of this amendment, but I thought I might add ...

Lord Pannick | 712 c1198 (Link to this contribution) I support the observations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and urge the Government to res...

Lord Bach | 712 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments focuses on the matters which the sentencing council must have regard to whe...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1206-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, knows that his amendment does not have a snowball’s ...

Lord Monson | 712 c1207 (Link to this contribution) Is it not correct that in France those found guilty of serious crimes are very often officially depr...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1208 (Link to this contribution) That is so in some countries—I think France is probably one. That is a case where the particular ind...

Baroness Stern | 712 c1208 (Link to this contribution) I rise in the same spirit as the noble Lord, Lord Lester. It will certainly not be the first time I ...

Lord Henley | 712 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I shall make just one brief comment in welcoming these government amendments. As a general rule, whe...

Lord Bach | 712 c1204-5 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 188F to 188X 188F: Clause 107, page 65, line 36, at end insert— "( ) such other factors ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c1205 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 188XA 188XA: After Clause 107, insert the following new Clause— "Sentencing guidelines: v...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c1205-6 (Link to this contribution) This is essentially a probing amendment related to something that has been raised in this House many...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 712 c1202-3 (Link to this contribution) Clause 107: Sentencing ranges Amendment 188E 188E: Clause 107, page 65, line 26, leave out subsect...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 712 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading, we made it clear that the Government were willing to consider amendments, or tabl...

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s reply. Will he write to me on the last point, which is whether ther...

Lord Bach | 712 c1202 (Link to this contribution) Of course I will write to the noble Earl.

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1201-2 (Link to this contribution) I am prompted by what the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has said to ask the Minister whether it mi...

Lord Bach | 712 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I had dealt with these two amendments earlier, but I clearly had not. Let me say, at ...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1200-1 (Link to this contribution) This amendment has in a sense already been spoken to by the Government but it is next in the groupin...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1201 (Link to this contribution) I very much support restorative justice, but it seems to me that it can very well be regarded by the...

Lord Bach | 712 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 188CB 188CB: Clause 106, page 65, line 20, at end insert— "( ) the impact of sentencing d...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1200 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 188D 188D: Clause 106, page 65, line 22, leave out paragraph (d) and insert— "( ) the rel...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. When I referred back to the Government...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1213-5 (Link to this contribution) The first point that I make in support of the amendment is that there is nothing new about sentencin...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1215-6 (Link to this contribution) My name, too, is on the amendment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has spoken in ...

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1216-7 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what my two noble and learned friends have said. My noble friend Lord Tenby intro...

Baroness Stern | 712 c1217-8 (Link to this contribution) I support those who have put their names to the amendment. I have not, in the past—I have to admit—b...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1218-9 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the noble Baroness’s question is yes. We are becoming tick-box obsessed. That may be a...

Lord Henley | 712 c1219 (Link to this contribution) I—

Lord Bach | 712 c1212 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord and I have been on this subject of the remedial order before. No, we do not think tha...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c1212-3 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all those who have spoken. I must make it abundantly clear that I do not take ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Clause 110: Proposals by Lord Chancellor or Court of Appeal Amendment 188Y 188Y: Clause 110, page ...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Clause 111: Sentencing guidelines: duty of court Amendment 189 189: Clause 111, page 69, line 4, l...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1210 (Link to this contribution) I express my strong support for what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and my noble ...

Lord Bach | 712 c1211 (Link to this contribution) I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on his immense skill in persuading the au...

Lord Henley | 712 c1210 (Link to this contribution) As I made clear, my honourable friend has asked for a debate on this matter. As I understand that pa...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 712 c1210 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I immensely admire the motivation of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, in raising this matte...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1212 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for the Minister’s remarks, but could he clarify one matter about the timetable? ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c1211 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister had read my response to the first consultation document, he would have found this su...

Lord Bach | 712 c1211-2 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I withdraw what I was saying immediately. I was under the impression that the noble Lo...

Lord Henley | 712 c1209-10 (Link to this contribution) The House will be aware that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and I do not always agree on a large amoun...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 712 c1210 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, could he explain on behalf of the Opposition whether it is their po...

Lord Pannick | 712 c1208-9 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. "Votes for felons" is no doubt not a popular slogan...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c1191 (Link to this contribution) For the reasons that have already been given, I particularly support the idea that somebody with exp...

Earl of Listowel | 712 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I support and second what the noble Baroness said about the treatment of, and highly puniti...

Lord Woolf | 712 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) I also want to say a few words in support of what has been suggested by the distinguished Liberal De...

Lord Bach | 712 c1184 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 13: The Sentencing Council for England and Wales Amendment 187AA 187AA: Schedule 13, page...

Lord Bach | 712 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) I turn now to the amendments that relate to the membership of the sentencing council as set out in S...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1186-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to follow my noble friend Lord Dholakia and also make some suggestions on the composition of ...

Lord Borrie | 712 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I particularly comment—to a large degree, favourably—on the amendments in the group proposed by the ...

Lord Henley | 712 c1185 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 187AB and 187BC. Following on from the Minister’s amendments, they are p...

Lord Bach | 712 c1193 (Link to this contribution) It is. When we come to it in the list, we will certainly vote in favour of it.

Lord Henley | 712 c1193 (Link to this contribution) I was not expecting the noble Lord to accept my amendments, which, as I stated, were probing amendme...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1193 (Link to this contribution) It is with a heavy heart that I say that I did not necessarily expect the Government to accept my am...

Lord Bach | 712 c1193 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 187BA 187BA: Schedule 13, page 149, line 27, leave out from "appoint" to end of line 33 a...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 712 c1191 (Link to this contribution) I follow what the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said. He pointed out that, in the selection of people eli...

Lord Bach | 712 c1191-3 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 187AB and 187BC in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, refer to the judicial members...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 712 c1193 (Link to this contribution) The other noble Lords are the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and I. Would the noble Lord, Lord Henley, lik...

Lord Henley | 712 c1193 (Link to this contribution) I do not have my name down to Amendment 188, which is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. ...

Lord Goodhart | 712 c1257 (Link to this contribution) Clauses 124 and 125 are of course simply consequential on Amendment 191A. The noble Lord, Lord Bach,...

Lord Henley | 712 c1199 (Link to this contribution) It seems fairly obvious that I do not have the support of the Government on these amendments, but th...

Lord Dholakia | 712 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment 188 is grouped with a number of others on the Marshalled List. The Minister will recall...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c1241 (Link to this contribution) Clause 114: Monitoring Amendment 190 190: Clause 114, page 71, line 38, at end insert— "but nothin...

Subjects

Children

Civil liberties

Criminal proceedings

Crime

Administration of justice

Confiscation orders

Custodial treatment

Court of Appeal

Age of criminal responsibility

Women

Judiciary