UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 9 June 2009, in the House of Lords.
Welfare Reform Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. New clause (Amendment 1) debated and withdrawn. Clause 1 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
711 c31-90GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 32-EN also published.
Wednesday, 18 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) I listened to the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. It is difficult to respond in ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c74GC (Link to this contribution) The more I have listened to this relatively short debate, the more I have become convinced that the ...

Show all contributions (159)
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c77GC (Link to this contribution) The incident which the noble Baroness has just identified would not happen because that would be goo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c85GC (Link to this contribution) It is a little vague to say an "earlier stage" in the process. Does that mean that they go back to s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c87GC (Link to this contribution) With respect and to be very clear, someone could move to the external provider directly from the Fle...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 3 would mean that claimants could be required to participate in "work for your benefit" pr...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that answer. It was very useful. I think that only until I think about it a little...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) I have been asked to join the Committee at this stage by my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale. One brie...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister cannot get away with that. Even a pathfinder has a budget, for goodness’ sake.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c42GC (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend help us on a further point? Part of our difficulty in the Committee is our conce...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. I see many things as I go around the country. The other day...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c87GC (Link to this contribution) Paragraph (f) of new Section 17A(5) is very important because it will lead to the participant being ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c87GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 10 10: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 22 to 24
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c80GC (Link to this contribution) The work experience part is intended to be 30 hours. One of the big differences between how the prog...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c82GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the noble Lord’s intervention. Yet again, if there is any way that we can help, to...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rix, for pointing out the error of my ways. None the less, in ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c83GC (Link to this contribution) If we are looking at the "work for your benefit" provisions, I will just recap. They are intended to...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c83GC (Link to this contribution) We are looking at the short term and the longer term. The words "or be able to do so" are meant to e...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c84GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 8 8: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 10 to 12
Baroness Afshar | 711 c76GC (Link to this contribution) It was earlier stated that for every £1 spent, £1.50 is saved. Adding all those 50-pences together h...
Countess of Mar | 711 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister may be amused to know that almost exactly 50 years ago I started to work for what was k...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c77-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to hear it. The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, made a good point about the cultural pro...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c85GC (Link to this contribution) Ah ha! A successful pinning down. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 8 withdrawn.
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister accept that this has been a growing phenomenon over the period of this Government?...
Lord Rix | 711 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I thoroughly enjoyed the presentation of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. When we come to my amendment...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I add my concern about the amount and, of course, quality of childcare available. So many Bills that...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister finished that interesting exchange with the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Let me see if I can be as helpful to the noble Lord as possible. If there is not appropriate and aff...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c69GC (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point. I disagree for the reasons in the Gregg report. Gregg says that the ca...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c70GC (Link to this contribution) I will pick up on a couple of points that have been made. My noble friend is absolutely right to dra...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I seem to have a figure of £175 for the first child and £300 thereafter. I think that comes through ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 4 simply takes out the word "designed" and replaces it with "personally tailored" so that ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 4 4: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out "designed" and insert "personally tailored"
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) I think we have made progress. As always, I am grateful. I think the Minister has gone as far as he ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c64GC (Link to this contribution) The process will clearly be an engagement between the Jobcentre Plus adviser and the individual. I e...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have the costs in front of me; I do have them buried here somewhere in a note. I understand...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Just to make sure that I have that right, is it correct that within this £20 million budget for the ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, of course it does. I think I am right in saying that in the "work for your benefit" pathfinders...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister talked about money from the Jobcentre Plus scheme, so I was obviously talking about the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have details of the budget at my fingertips, and it would obviously depend on which budgets...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I think we have probably taken this exchange as far as we can, and I am not going to be able to sati...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister misunderstood me, and I probably expressed myself badly. The second time I asked the qu...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 711 c31GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting—which there will be—the Committee will ad...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c35GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with much that has been said. On the other hand, it is quite important to put on record the ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment moved so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. I am particularly ...
Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 711 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. I do not want to get involved in a debate with the noble Baronesses around...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c42-3GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister finally sits down, can he assure us that in this time of scarcity of jobs there ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c43GC (Link to this contribution) I can give the noble Baroness an absolute assurance that the progression-to-work group does not requ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c43GC (Link to this contribution) There will be sanctions for non-compliance, which would involve at some point withdrawal of an eleme...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I thought I had written it down fairly carefully but perhaps when I read Hansard tomorrow I shall un...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c45GC (Link to this contribution) What I hoped I had said was that no one can be directed to work at a particular job or to job-seek u...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Between them they could think about a carer’s allowance. I am sorry; that was naughty; I should not ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c46GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1: Schemes for assisting persons to obtain employment: "work for your benefit" schemes etc. ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I would hesitate to engage with parliamentary counsel to try to unpick the wording of this provision...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c48GC (Link to this contribution) In the case of the ethnic minorities, we often find that the over-50s do not speak English, are not ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution) There is no doubt that the debate on welfare reform has hardly scratched the surface of the impact o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c51GC (Link to this contribution) I should start by thanking the noble Countess, Lady Mar, for these amendments, because they have rai...
Countess of Mar | 711 c56GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his very full response to my points and I beg leave to withdraw the amendme...
Countess of Mar | 711 c55-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to noble Lords who took part in the debate and for the support for my amendment. ...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c56-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 3 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Thomas. I declare an interest as a no...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 711 c90GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Thursday at 2 pm.
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I think so. I apologise for the inadequate way in which I moved the amendment. I am very grateful to...
Lord Rix | 711 c82GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to clarify a point. The letter to which the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, referred, was also...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that this amendment will take a little longer. My second amendment covers the situation ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c83GC (Link to this contribution) Does that not make those words extraneous? The previous words read, ""that the person will obtain or...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c83GC (Link to this contribution) It is more specifically to ensure that we cover people who are now involved in work experience which...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c83GC (Link to this contribution) This has become a rather semantic debate. Clearly, the Minister is absolutely definite that he does ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c84GC (Link to this contribution) "Work for your benefit" will be a full-time programme. People may be required to do up to 40 hours o...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c84GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that comment. The period of six months has been mentioned several times by the Min...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c73GC (Link to this contribution) The difficulty between the words "designed" and "tailored" is that "designed" assumes that all mothe...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I suppose that there are limits to the analogy of tailoring, but I can see circumstances in which so...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c76-7GC (Link to this contribution) I suggest to the noble Lord that in a way we are trying to square an impossible circle, because some...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the ratio of £1 invested to £1.50 returned is saying that you can recover all your cost...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c74GC (Link to this contribution) I was provoked by those two powerful contributions because one of my spies in the department gave me...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c77GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate for their support, especially the noble Barone...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c79GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1 is specifically about making provision for "work for your benefit". "Work for your benefit"...
Countess of Mar | 711 c79GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred to full-time work experience and then mentioned 30 hours. My understanding of ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c80GC (Link to this contribution) The proposal is for 40 hours per week, but up to 10 hours of that would involve work experience, wor...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c78GC (Link to this contribution) I hope matters will get simpler now and we shall move forward a bit faster. I have five small, probi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c85-6GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment removes lines 13 and 14 on page 2, which correspond precisely with new Section 17A(5)...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c87GC (Link to this contribution) That, again, is extremely helpful. I assume it means the efforts that are made to keep the participa...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c86GC (Link to this contribution) Managing the statistics was only one of my questions but, given the lateness of the hour, perhaps we...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I have two amendments coming up later on exactly this subject. It might have been better if they had...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c60GC (Link to this contribution) In York, those who are entitled to have some payment towards their childcare, particularly teachers ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I was trying to answer the noble Lord’s question as best I could. A budget of £20 million has been s...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c69GC (Link to this contribution) My formulation covers that because that would be acting unreasonably. If there is childcare across t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I can be very clear on that. If the proportion of a person's income which might have to be deployed ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c70GC (Link to this contribution) A sudden thought has come to me. We keep talking about one child. A lot of women have three or four ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c64GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure my noble friend would want to remind the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, that there are well es...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c63GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister aware that Annette Brooke, my honourable friend in another place, discovered yesterd...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c63GC (Link to this contribution) We should be clear that, at the end of the day, childcare is the parent’s choice. One might conceive...
Countess of Mar | 711 c66GC (Link to this contribution) What is the average hourly cost of these childcare places?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c64-6GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is exactly right. Sanctions are appealable and before that stage there is an opportu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister reiterates the various arguments, I should say that on this matter of the cost o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord is trying to draw me into an analysis of a figure that, at this stage, is jus...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I am aware of that, but if we are looking at Clauses 1 and 2, pathfinders will take them forward. Th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c67GC (Link to this contribution) All the Minister has to say is yes or no. It is quite simple.
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c31GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 1 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— "Exemptions to this Part Nothing i...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have a lot of sympathy with the concerns behind the amendment. I am not sure that I agree all the ...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c37GC (Link to this contribution) I support the principle behind the amendment, although I am not sure that the wording is exactly as ...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. Research by the Mother and Infant Research Unit of the University of York ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c38GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for this amendment, which has given us a good start in th...
Countess of Mar | 711 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, briefly touched on parents in rural communities. As I come from a v...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c38-42GC (Link to this contribution) Let me try to be very clear. Clause 1, which contains "work for your benefit" provisions, applies on...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c42GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I should be very happy to do that. In fact, I asked for some case studies relating to each of t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords in this Grand Committee who have spoken to this first ame...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c43GC (Link to this contribution) A number of provisions could apply. If the child is aged seven, by 2010 such a person could be fully...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c44GC (Link to this contribution) When the Minister speaks of carers, that includes people caring for their own children?
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c44GC (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful and no doubt will inform our later discussions. I also understood the Mini...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c44GC (Link to this contribution) What I was trying to convey was that, if you look in particular at the age of the youngest child for...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c47-8GC (Link to this contribution) We have sympathy with the reasoning behind the amendment. There is no doubt that once older people a...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c56GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 3 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, after "circumstances" insert "and claimants which have gu...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 711 c90GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn till Thursday at 2 pm.
Lord Northbourne | 711 c88GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to delay the House, but I should like to confirm that it will be, I hope, appropriate ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c88GC (Link to this contribution) I think we have some more detailed amendments around that. I am sure that there will be that opportu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c87GC (Link to this contribution) As I said, that is extremely helpful, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 9 withdr...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c80GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 7: Clause 1, page 2, line 3, leave out "or be able to do so"
Countess of Mar | 711 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I am still confused. If a person is doing 30 hours of full-time work why does he nee...
Countess of Mar | 711 c83GC (Link to this contribution) Does the phrase "or be able to do so" apply to someone who is trained and ready for work but for who...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c84GC (Link to this contribution) It is clear from new subsection (5)(a) that the personal adviser needs to notify the participant of ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c84-5GC (Link to this contribution) One hopes that at the end of six months an individual would be able to reach and sustain employment....
Lord Rix | 711 c73GC (Link to this contribution) Why could we not split the difference and shove in "personally" before "designed"?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c74-6GC (Link to this contribution) I will start by responding to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and his comments about the staff survey...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c77GC (Link to this contribution) I shall pick up one or two points. I want to be clear about the definition of "work for your benefit...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c78GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 6 6: Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out "work, or"
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) We agree that blurring work and work-related activity is very confusing. I think this was the noble ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c86GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for this amendment, and indeed for the series of amendments. If it can help t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c85GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 9 9: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 13 and 14
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c85GC (Link to this contribution) Let me see if I can provide the noble Lord with a little more detail. If the individual goes back to...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I probably did not deal specifically with that. It depends on someone’s journey into the "work for y...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c62-3GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that any amendment has a proper purpose behind it. I do not mind how many there are, as lon...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c61-2GC (Link to this contribution) There is absolutely no doubt that childcare, which the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, will remember came...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c63GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister say who will be responsible for determining whether the childcare is "reasonable" ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c60GC (Link to this contribution) As I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, I suddenly realised the problem of this Bill: the in...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c69GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I wonder whether my noble friend can help us. Are we still eliding the distinction between pr...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c70GC (Link to this contribution) It is not reasonable to go from the Gregg report to this legislation because a lot of the philosophy...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful if the noble Lord would tell me whether I am out of order in raising an issue. I...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c71GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The support is at the tax-credit level. There is a rate for one child and a rate for two or mor...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I have two points. When we look at what is included in good cause, which we shall debate later, that...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c64GC (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister be kind enough to explain something to me? I am a little confused now. If it is t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) I was not aware of that particular exchange yesterday. I have some data on the availability of child...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c31-4GC (Link to this contribution) I start what I am afraid will be fairly protracted proceedings in Grand Committee with an amendment ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c34GC (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment. There is clearly a balance to be struck between the state supporting lone ...
Lord Rowlands | 711 c43GC (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend clarify a point? What sanctions will be attached to the progression-to-work grou...
Lord Rix | 711 c43GC (Link to this contribution) My question is somewhat naive, but exactly what provisions apply to a single mother with a disabled ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I made reference to paid work, I think.
Countess of Mar | 711 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) I move to the other end of the age spectrum. I shall speak also to Amendments 27, 31, 91, 156, 157, ...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister would give some thought to redefining that. To suggest, even by implication, th...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c48GC (Link to this contribution) I also have been contacted by Age Concern about these amendments. I have done some work for Age Conc...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c48-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I was unable to be present at Second Reading, but I very much support the intention...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c51-5GC (Link to this contribution) As the state pension age starts to equalise from 60 to 65 in April 2010 to 2020, some people who are...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c50-1GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend addresses this matter, can he help me? Perhaps I should know this, but I do n...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c56GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Countess will permit me, I should like to speak to two points. Of course the labour mar...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c88GC (Link to this contribution) I shall do my best to straighten the noble Lord out. This amendment would, in practice, cast doubt o...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) The fact that a particular way of expressing the law occurs in other social security legislation is ...
Subjects
Childcare
Benefits rules
Jobseeker's allowance
Jobcentre Plus
Employment services
Older workers
Lone parents
Social security benefits
Training
Reform
Welfare state
New deal schemes
New deal for lone parents
Pathways to work
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09
Link
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