Business Rate Supplements Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 5 to 32 agreed to, with clause 27 agreed to as amended. Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Business Rate Supplements Bill
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
710 c509-70GC
Session
2008-09
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Business Rate Supplements Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 30-EN also published.
Thursday, 12 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 12 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Bates | 710 c520GC (Link to this contribution)
We are getting a little bit closer—I thank the Minister for that—but we are not quite there, because...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c512GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me—we are in Committee—but there was one more thing that I me...
Show all contributions (140)
Baroness Andrews | 710 c512-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Let me start by apologising if noble Lords did not receive hard copies. I was very glad that we were...
Lord Bates | 710 c544-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I rise to support the noble Baroness in her Amendment 48B but also to speak to amendments standing i...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c547GC (Link to this contribution)
I am still a little puzzled. I understand that the reliefs are captured by the formulae in Clause 13...
Lord Bates | 710 c553GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister makes a good point, but she accepts that we were arguing that London and Crossrail shou...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c552GC (Link to this contribution)
I have Amendments 52 and 55 in this group. Amendment 52 would amend Clause 16, which relates to the ...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c552-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may deal with the offset first and Amendments 51, 53 and 54. Linked to that is Amendment 5...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c523GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very glad that the noble Earl had the opportunity to correct Hansard. I cannot imagine what his...
Lord Moynihan | 710 c524-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister, but I understood the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Tope, to be...
Lord Bates | 710 c522GC (Link to this contribution)
We are quite comfortable with the amendments. The only concern that we have about them is the extent...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c557-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment and congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, on having dealt with su...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c568-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid that the joy will now be confined because, much as I would like to cave in completely an...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c519-20GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not certain that I am following the noble Lord’s argument. I am not quite sure what he would wa...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c518-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall try to do that because these are important points. They go to the heart of the commitment th...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c518GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the noble Lord in his thinking behind the amendment. I am not quite sure about being invol...
Lord Bates | 710 c517GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 33
33: Schedule 1, page 22, line 16, at end insert—
"11A A description of the arrangement...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c516-7GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, as I assume he is about to, can the Minister confirm ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c514-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move Amendment 25 standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Man...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c516GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for how he introduced the amendment and the background, which is use...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c543GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 15: BRS relief
Amendment 48B
48B: Clause 15, page 11, line 19, leave out from "BRS" to end ...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c543-4GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 15(1) states that a levying authority can apply, ""such reliefs … as it thinks appropriate"."...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c547GC (Link to this contribution)
With respect to the Minister and her officials, who have just given her that bit of prompting, that ...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c547GC (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, that allows local authorities to move the threshold above £50,000 and allows the...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c543GC (Link to this contribution)
Can the Minister tell us whether there is any difference conceptually or philosophically between the...
Lord Best | 710 c540GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 14: Chargeable amount: supplementary
Amendment 48A
48A: Clause 14, page 11, line 5, at end ...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c542GC (Link to this contribution)
We support the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Best, will not be surprised because I have made the s...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c542-3GC (Link to this contribution)
That was a helpful debate to tease out some of the arguments around the amendment. I understand that...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c541GC (Link to this contribution)
There is merit in this proposal. I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association; I am not...
Lord Best | 710 c543GC (Link to this contribution)
I make two general points in defence of the amendments. They are about giving local authorities grea...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c548GC (Link to this contribution)
I have added my name to Amendment 61B in this group referring to the provision allowing the Secretar...
Lord Bates | 710 c548GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall be brief. The amendment relates to trying to secure some specific responses from the Governm...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c547GC (Link to this contribution)
In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 48B withdrawn.
Amendments 49 to 50 ...
Lord Bates | 710 c550GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 50A withdrawn.
Earl Cathcart | 710 c523GC (Link to this contribution)
I had to go back last weekend under the cover of darkness. I crept in and kept a very low profile. I...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c525GC (Link to this contribution)
Clearly the certainty that we are looking for may be contained in the word "require". My argument is...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c521GC (Link to this contribution)
All that I would add is that I could not conceive of a governance arrangement for one of these proje...
Lord Bates | 710 c520-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend for making that point. We understand that there needs to be flexibi...
Lord Bates | 710 c521GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has been clear in that regard. It is a commitment for which we are very grateful, but i...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c536GC (Link to this contribution)
In the autumn; early autumn.
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c537GC (Link to this contribution)
Again, as I have raised the point on the consultation paper, that is a very helpful suggestion and I...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c533-6GC (Link to this contribution)
A number of amendments in this group explore the relationship between the levying and billing author...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c531-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for what noble Lords have said. It shows once again what a cross-party initiative Cros...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c526-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his gracious offer. We are discussing a complex concept and...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c532GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 9: Regulations about ballots
Amendment 44A
44A: Clause 9, page 6, line 5, at end insert—
"(...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c532GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister very much indeed. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 41.
Amendment 41 withdrawn...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c555GC (Link to this contribution)
I could tell you who it was, but not here.
Baroness Andrews | 710 c555GC (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to put it on the record that I do not think that it is either good politics or good pract...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c556GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 55B
55B: Clause 16, page 12, line 9, at end insert—
"( ) Schedule (Amendments to Local Go...
Lord Bates | 710 c555-6GC (Link to this contribution)
It is nice to see peace breaking out all over the Committee. In this wonderful, fast-moving world in...
Lord Bates | 710 c559-60GC (Link to this contribution)
I feel as though I have sat through a master class in parliamentary draftsmanship, consequential det...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c560GC (Link to this contribution)
We, too, support the amendment. Given the time, and knowing that we are aiming to finish Committee s...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c560GC (Link to this contribution)
There is not the time.
Baroness Andrews | 710 c562GC (Link to this contribution)
This is a matter not for the Government but for the House authorities and so on, to which the noble ...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c565GC (Link to this contribution)
We are speeding up to finish this before the witching hour of 7.45 pm. Amendment 59 would provide fo...
Lord Bates | 710 c567-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am conscious of the time and the sheer joy that overcame the Committee as we heard the government ...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c568GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord and the Minister will not be surprised to hear that we support the amendment. It has ...
Lord Bates | 710 c570GC (Link to this contribution)
I cannot say that I am grateful for that response, as obviously I am not. Perhaps I am more grateful...
Lord Bates | 710 c519GC (Link to this contribution)
Therefore, if a circumstance where that might be the case is not conceivable, would it not be approp...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c517GC (Link to this contribution)
With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 25 withdrawn.
Amendments 26 to 32 not ...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c545-6GC (Link to this contribution)
These are two very important amendments and there have been two powerful arguments in explication. A...
Lord Bates | 710 c546GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister said that the idea of empty property relief was to get owners of properties to re-let t...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c546-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I certainly accept the point that it is difficult in the current climate; I have no argument against...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c547GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not know whether the noble Lord wants to come back on his amendment before I respond.
Lord Best | 710 c540-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendment 66A. At Second Reading, I declared my interest as president of the L...
Lord Bates | 710 c540GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the Minister’s reply. I am obviously disappointed that the businesses which are ex...
Lord Bates | 710 c541-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I hesitate to disagree with my distinguished colleague and noble friend Lord Jenkin, and with the co...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c543GC (Link to this contribution)
Each BRS as it comes along will have to subscribe to the Act—as I hope it will then be. An authority...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c553-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I take that point entirely. However, there are enough reasons not to go down this route of an automa...
Lord Bates | 710 c551GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 51
51: Clause 16, page 11, line 37, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
"(1) Where a per...
Lord Bates | 710 c551-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 51 would mean that, where a person was liable for a business improvement district levy and...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 710 c550GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 16: Interaction with BID levy
I should tell your Lordships that, if Amendment 51 is agreed,...
Lord Bates | 710 c550GC (Link to this contribution)
It may be because of the stage that we have reached in Committee that I am slow on the uptake, but I...
Lord Moynihan | 710 c525-6GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister gave a very good example that would be amply covered by the amendment of the noble Lord...
Lord Tope | 710 c526GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that we are getting anywhere by pressing this further. I accept the Minister’s offer ...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c520GC (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I take the noble Lord’s point. Perhaps he will let me think about what he said. We have some sc...
Lord Moynihan | 710 c520GC (Link to this contribution)
It is extremely helpful that the Minister will go away and think about my noble friend’s important s...
Lord Bates | 710 c520GC (Link to this contribution)
I am reassured by the Minister saying that she will take the matter away and look at it, in particul...
Lord Tope | 710 c521GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 6: Consultation
Amendment 38
38: Clause 6, page 4, line 21, leave out "think whether it wou...
Earl Cathcart | 710 c522-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I was not going to speak this afternoon; in fact I was slightly apprehensive about having to speak t...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c536-7GC (Link to this contribution)
The early autumn; September or October. I insist on behalf of the London boroughs that they want to ...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c537GC (Link to this contribution)
What I said in response to the amendment was sincerely felt. We have never said that we would publis...
Lord Bates | 710 c533GC (Link to this contribution)
These are all sensible amendments and we are happy to support them. A couple of issues that they rai...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c532-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall raise a number of, I hope, short points. The first amendment in the group would amend Clause...
Lord Bates | 710 c530-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I support these amendments, to which I have had the honour of putting my name. I very much support a...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c530GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 7: Holding of ballot
Amendment 41
41: Clause 7, page 4, line 32, at beginning insert "Subje...
Lord Tope | 710 c529GC (Link to this contribution)
As always, I am grateful to the Minister for her full and detailed reply. She is right that we will ...
Lord Bates | 710 c511-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I join my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding in welcoming these sensible amendments, which reflect t...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c510-1GC (Link to this contribution)
My appearance at the table here beside my noble friends Lord Bates and Lord Cathcart does not sugges...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c509GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 5: Prospectus
Amendment 18 not moved.
Amendment 19
19: Clause 5, page 3, line 33, after "p...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c554GC (Link to this contribution)
I know that the noble Baroness is forensic in her analysis of the language of legislation. I shall h...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c554GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness is puzzled, because the explanation seemed, as the Minister herself decided, to b...
Lord Bates | 710 c555GC (Link to this contribution)
I almost wanted to delay rising to allow the Minister to respond, but I am happy to give way at any ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c554-5GC (Link to this contribution)
Before my noble friend withdraws his amendment, I acknowledge the kindness of the Minister in saying...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c562GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I did not catch it but is the noble Baroness saying that the Government’s amendment will ext...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c562GC (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, the noble Baroness also said that she would examine the question of the Long Tit...
Lord Bates | 710 c563GC (Link to this contribution)
We do not have a particularly strong view on Amendments 58 and 61C. I am sure they are worthy, but w...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c562GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 21: Collection and enforcement
Amendment 58
58: Clause 21, page 14, line 19, leave out "pre...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c562GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords for their constructive contributions and look forward to discussing the amendmen...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c565GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 22: Administrative expenses
Amendment 59
59: Clause 22, page 14, line 26, after "incurs" in...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c564-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I cannot quite remember how I framed the question. I am not sure whether I was expecting the answer ...
Lord Bates | 710 c567GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 67
67: Clause 29, page 19, line 2, at end insert—
"( ) For the avoidance of doubt it is h...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c519GC (Link to this contribution)
No, I should not have thought that it was a conceivable possibility because the whole point is that ...
Lord Bates | 710 c519GC (Link to this contribution)
Not exactly. Normally the Minister is extremely helpful, but not on that point. I shall respond more...
Lord Moynihan | 710 c518GC (Link to this contribution)
Picking up briefly on my noble friend’s comments perhaps I may ask the Minister whether in giving he...
Lord Bates | 710 c517-8GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendment is fairly straightforward and I will not take a great deal of time in introducing it. ...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c517GC (Link to this contribution)
I completely understand what the noble Baroness is saying. I shall do my very best.
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c514GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 25
25: Schedule 1, page 21, line 18, at end insert—
"(d) the likely impact of the imposit...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c516GC (Link to this contribution)
Before I withdraw the amendment, those who asked me to table it have had some discussions with Her M...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c513-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I recognised that I was going to be caught by my own argument. In response to the points made by the...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c538-9GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has sketched out the context in terms of the difficulties that businesses are facing,...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c550GC (Link to this contribution)
On the second of the two amendments, in regard to cancellation I was not concerned with minor incons...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c548-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall start with Amendment 50A, which seeks to put beyond doubt that when a ratepayer requests it,...
Lord Bates | 710 c548GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 50A
50A: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
"Power for levying authority t...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c547GC (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to do so. I am sure the language is sufficiently flexible for it to be appropriate. I tak...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c550GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry. I gave a very abstract answer to that specific set of questions. My understanding is tha...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c523-4GC (Link to this contribution)
We have all had experiences of Hansard and of problems that we have created. I remember when I was a...
Lord Tope | 710 c525GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, explained my amendment very well indeed and far better than I would d...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c525GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful for the intervention. We will have to ask the noble Lord, Lord Tope, to explain his am...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c526GC (Link to this contribution)
I gave two examples of what I thought would be the parameters of potential uncertainty. I am not sur...
Lord Tope | 710 c521-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall also speak to Amendments 39, 40, 46A, 63 and 66.
At Second Reading, I expressed my concern ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 710 c536GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, withdraws the amendment, while we may take some exception, a...
Lord Bates | 710 c538GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 12: Rateable value condition
Amendment 48
48: Clause 12, page 8, line 21, at end insert—
"(...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c537GC (Link to this contribution)
It is indeed a helpful suggestion, and I thank the Minister for that. On the timetable, of which we ...
Lord Bates | 710 c538GC (Link to this contribution)
This is a minor, probing amendment to test where the Government stand in relation to the £50,000 thr...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c531GC (Link to this contribution)
We support the amendment.
Baroness Valentine | 710 c530GC (Link to this contribution)
As I shall eventually withdraw Amendment 41, I shall speak to the substantive amendment in this grou...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c511GC (Link to this contribution)
I wonder whether it would help the debate if I confirmed to the noble Lord that one of my amendments...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c509-10GC (Link to this contribution)
I will speak also to Amendments 20, 21 and 22. These amendments are about the prospectus that has to...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c556-7GC (Link to this contribution)
As Amendment 55B is consequential, I shall focus on Amendment 60A, which is grouped with it, and apo...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c560GC (Link to this contribution)
I will try to pick up some of those points. On the information to collect the money from owners, I b...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c560GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to everyone who has spoken in the debate, particularly to the noble Baroness for movin...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c560-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I may have more than enough time but in terms of the Long Title, it is not so much for the Governmen...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c562GC (Link to this contribution)
It will extend only to BIDs where a BRS is in place.
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c562-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak also to Amendments 61A and 61C. Amendment 58 relates to the abandonment of a project a...
Baroness Hamwee | 710 c566GC (Link to this contribution)
Of course, I tabled these amendments before the consultation document was published. This may not be...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c565-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I can satisfy the noble Baroness on this point. Amendment 59 would enable billing author...
Baroness Andrews | 710 c563-4GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 58 would potentially allow the levying authority to determine when to stop collecting and ...
Baroness Valentine | 710 c567GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 27: Special introductory provision
Amendment 62
62: Clause 27, page 17, line 4, at end inse...
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