Parliamentary search - Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL]

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

706 c107-62GC

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 2-EN also published.
Thursday, 4 December 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Graham of Edmonton | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) PACT?

Lord Greaves | 706 c139-41GC (Link to this contribution) The interesting issue that has come out of this, where there is a sticking point, is the question of...

Show all contributions (105)

Lord Greaves | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Sorry, I am ahead of myself. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 43 withdrawn. Amendm...

Lord Greaves | 706 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly withdraw the amendment in a moment. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hanningf...

Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 54 and 55 clearly seek to limit the Secretary of State’s—or, in the case of Wales, Welsh ...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c119GC (Link to this contribution) I have one amendment in the group. It would remove Clause 2(2)(e), which includes in the list of con...

Lord Greaves | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) We come to the part of the Bill that lists the connected authorities. There are two lists, in subsec...

Lord Hanningfield | 706 c123GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in that. I declare an interest as patron of the Essex academies...

Lord Greaves | 706 c128GC (Link to this contribution) They may do in Sutton, yes, but by and large people choose it according to the perceived quality of ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c134-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendments 44, 45 and 46 in my name. These take us to the second list, which t...

Baroness Maddock | 706 c133-4GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Government think about what happens when you are near the border, particularly with health ...

Lord Tope | 706 c107GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: Democratic arrangements of connected authorities Amendment 24 24: Clause 2, page 2, line...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c139GC (Link to this contribution) There is a very clear distinction between housing associations, which are private bodies, and FE col...

Lord Greaves | 706 c142GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 47 47: Clause 2, page 3, line 15, at end insert— ““( ) a local strategic partnership; ( )...

Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c142GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Grand Committee to adjourn for 10 minutes. Sitting suspende...

Lord Borrie | 706 c144-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether I have misunderstood the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—I hope not—but the amendment...

Lord Greaves | 706 c143-4GC (Link to this contribution) The Chairman’s apologies are entirely accepted. In moving Amendment 51, I shall also speak to Amendm...

Lord Greaves | 706 c146-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, which I shall come back to in a minute. The noble Lor...

Lord Greaves | 706 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution) We finally come to Amendment 54, which seeks to restrict the powers of the Secretary of State under ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c147GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 54 54: Clause 2, page 3, line 43, at end insert ““but this power shall only be used if th...

Lord Hanningfield | 706 c148GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for jumping up to speak before the Deputy Chairman had repeated the text of the amendmen...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c153-4GC (Link to this contribution) That is a good question. We are not imposing these requirements on the public bodies. In our dialogu...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c153GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain the ways in which the local authority could go further? Some of these clus...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c151-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity offered by the clause stand part debate to explain why we have inc...

Lord Tope | 706 c155GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 4: Lay justices Amendments 60 and 61 not moved. Amendment 62 62: Clause 4, page 4, line 38...

Lord Tope | 706 c154GC (Link to this contribution) They happen to be located in Surrey, not in the London Borough of Sutton or in Greater London. At th...

Lord Tope | 706 c155GC (Link to this contribution) I should say that I really wish to oppose the Question that Clause 4 should stand part of the Bill f...

Lord Graham of Edmonton | 706 c154GC (Link to this contribution) Serves you right.

Baroness Andrews | 706 c157-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try not to repeat anything that I said in our previous debate, although many of the same iss...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c120-2GC (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that if we did not have a list in the first place, we would certainly spend a long ...

Lord Tope | 706 c119-20GC (Link to this contribution) The debate so far has exposed the difficulties of being prescriptive. When you produce lists, you ar...

Lord Greaves | 706 c117-9GC (Link to this contribution) I put those descriptions in inverted commas. I was trying to work out the thinking of the people who...

Lord Tope | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) For goodness’ sake!

Lord Greaves | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for that. I may have learnt something this afternoon that I was not quite clear a...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify this point if the noble Baroness is struggling with it....

Baroness Andrews | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I reiterate not only that we are not taking away any responsibility but that we are challenging FE c...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c123GC (Link to this contribution) In a way, the noble Lord makes my point for me, because there is nothing to stop local authorities—i...

Lord Tope | 706 c124GC (Link to this contribution) It is 14.

Lord Greaves | 706 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you. It is a long list—there is no doubt about that. Yet some bodies are not included. Therefo...

Lord Graham of Edmonton | 706 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I wish my noble friend good luck.

Lord Hanningfield | 706 c129GC (Link to this contribution) I shall give the Minister some information about Loughton School. Although it is in Essex, about 15 ...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c137-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to say that I am going to bring great joy to practically everyone in the Committee. Tha...

Lord Hanningfield | 706 c136GC (Link to this contribution) I have some general support for the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and his amendments in this group. If t...

Lord Borrie | 706 c136-7GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, the only local authority of which I have ever been a member is a parish council. I was a ch...

Lord Greaves | 706 c134GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 43 43: Clause 2, page 3, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) a parish meeting;””

Lord Tope | 706 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lady Hamwee is recovering but is not yet recovered enough to be here. Therefore, I r...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to write a detailed letter explaining the democratic arrangements as they are interpreted...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c109-11GC (Link to this contribution) This is the first of four important groups of amendments that seek to make alterations in relation t...

Lord Greaves | 706 c114GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 31 31: Clause 2, page 2, line 25, leave out ““person”” and insert ““body””

Lord Tope | 706 c113-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, although at times I think that we were a little at cross purpos...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I may need to go back a step and reiterate what I said. In Clauses 1 and 2, we are concerned that pe...

Lord Greaves | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) Now I am totally confused, but that might be my fault; it is getting late and my brain is getting fu...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) I have sent a reply to this point about four times. We are not taking anything away from the constit...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c160GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if the Minister thinks that I am labouring this point. I am aware of the Operation Black ...

Lord Tope | 706 c160-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for trying to explain this fully. I think I understand the purpose of ...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c139GC (Link to this contribution) I again raise an issue of principle—it may well be that it is my understanding that is not clear. Th...

Baroness Pitkeathley | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 43.

Lord Greaves | 706 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. The noble Lord should go to his local PACT; I am sure that he has them in Essex. We have a neig...

Lord Greaves | 706 c142-3GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 47 brings us back to partnerships, which we have discussed to a large extent. The Minister...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c143GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his creativity. We shall certainly look at his definition. I am ...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c151GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in his opposition to Clause 3 standing part of the Bill. I had ...

Lord Tope | 706 c150-1GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 3: Monitoring boards, court boards and youth offending teams Amendment 59 not moved. Debate...

Lord Borrie | 706 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said. I recall that in the past there has ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I may be confused by the terminology and do not understand the meaning of words as they are being us...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c156-7GC (Link to this contribution) I add my support to the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Tope. Amendment 62, as I read it, has two ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c117GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 32 32: Clause 2, page 2, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) a joint board or joint committee o...

Lord Hanningfield | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I shall follow my noble friend on FE colleges. I know a lot of them well—again, I declare an interes...

Lord Tope | 706 c122-3GC (Link to this contribution) I want to return to the issue of academy schools, which I have not thought about much before. I am a...

Lord Greaves | 706 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution) The last point was important and I thank the noble Baroness for dealing with it with great care. It ...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I was trying to rise before the noble Lord sat down, but he is quicker than I am. I want to raise th...

Lord Graham of Edmonton | 706 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Greaves | 706 c126-8GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 34 gives us a brief respite from lists to look at a particular problem with the Bill. I sh...

Lord Tope | 706 c128GC (Link to this contribution) They do, actually.

Lord Greaves | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 34 34: Clause 2, page 2, line 33, leave out from ““school”” to end of line 34 and insert ...

Baroness Maddock | 706 c137GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend if we are going to describe what is in the lists. We have had a discussion...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 706 c107GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend referred to primary care trusts as well as strategic health authorities. Can the nob...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c109GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Tope, is rightly approaching the same point as I raised earlier in the week, al...

Baroness Maddock | 706 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am not hostile to these things being included, but I am hostile to the interpretation. If the Gove...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clarification. In the light of it, I go back to the comments made by t...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) I also thank the Minister for that reply. I understand that this measure is not taking away the duty...

Lord Greaves | 706 c143GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 51 51: Clause 2, page 3, line 37, at end insert— ““( ) A principal local authority may by...

Lord Greaves | 706 c143GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot ask for more than that and therefore I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 47 w...

Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c145-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, wants to transfer the powers of the Secretary of State to local author...

Lord Tope | 706 c154GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation, although I do not think that we have yet covered ...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c152-3GC (Link to this contribution) Not at all. I was just about to say that at the moment that is not the case. All these bodies are ke...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c152GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way. Is she saying that we do not trust these organisations to promo...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) No, it is not about promoting involvement as in earlier clauses; it is about explaining the civic go...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c158GC (Link to this contribution) Again, am I correct that the duty in the clause is about promoting involvement?

Lord Greaves | 706 c114-6GC (Link to this contribution) It is inevitable that in a series of amendments on this clause we will have a series of interlinked ...

Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution) There were recurring themes in the noble Lord’s contribution on the definition of partnerships, whic...

Lord Tope | 706 c130GC (Link to this contribution) The problem has been well illustrated, but I do not want the debate to go entirely to Yorkshire folk...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c129-30GC (Link to this contribution) The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, are interesting. I come from across the border and ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I now beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 32 withdrawn. Amendment 33 not moved.

Lord Greaves | 706 c132-3GC (Link to this contribution) I have to say that I do not know who writes the stuff for the Minister, but I was not terribly impre...

Lord Greaves | 706 c134GC (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to say that we should wheel in my noble friends Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Liv...

Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c131-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am from Yorkshire so I will be fine. This has been a helpful debate in which important points have...

Baroness Maddock | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I am at a loss. I cannot agree that all these bodies have democratic arrangements. Where is the demo...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I have made two commitments. I will write to the noble Baroness and copy to all interested parties a...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c112GC (Link to this contribution) Appointments to PCTs are made by the Secretary of State; the appointments are of local people on the...

Baroness Warsi | 706 c158-9GC (Link to this contribution) To take that point further, my question moments earlier was what duty is being placed here—the duty ...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c159GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is quite right to pick me up on that. My language was loose. I will say what I sa...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c159-60GC (Link to this contribution) I can give the noble Baroness some general argument and a specific example of the sort of things we ...

Baroness Andrews | 706 c160GC (Link to this contribution) If I had had time, I would have gone into much more detail than I was able to. The noble Baroness is...

Lord Patel of Bradford | 706 c162GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.

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