UK Parliament / Open data

Finance Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 1 July 2008, in the House of Commons.
Finance Bill. Ways and Means resolutions. Resolved that provision may be made in the Finance Bill: about the Income tax basic rate limit; about cases in which a right to be paid, repaid or credited with a sum by the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has been transferred from one person to another; for the making of provision (including provision having retrospective effect) in relation to insurance special purpose vehicles. Report stage first day. New Clauses 11-12 and 16 agreed to. New Clause 4 negatived on division (304 votes to 220). New Clause 5 negatived on division (295 votes to 214). New Clause 19 negatived on division (299 votes to 214). New Clause 2 debated and withdrawn. [Relevant document: HC 326 2007-08]
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
478 c736-834 
Session
2007-08
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Finance Bill. As amended in Public Bill Committee. In two volumes. (vote).
Friday, 20 June 2008
Bills
House of Commons
Budget measures and low-income households. Treasury Select Committee thirteenth report with proceedings, evidence (HC 326 i-ii not printed separately) and appendices.
Wednesday, 18 June 2008
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Finance Bill
Tuesday, 1 July 2008
Formal proceedings
House of Commons
Finance Bill
Tuesday, 1 July 2008
Formal proceedings
House of Commons

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Finance Bill
Tuesday, 1 July 2008
Formal proceedings
House of Commons
Finance Bill
Tuesday, 1 July 2008
Formal proceedings
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Andrew Love | 478 c746 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. According to the Treasury Committee report, the Chancello...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c746-8 (Link to this contribution) The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question was a useful contribution, but the latter part was n...

Show all contributions (171)
Mark Field | 478 c748 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the difficulties for the Government even of the converged thre...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c749-50 (Link to this contribution) I know that my hon. Friend served with distinction on the Committee that considered the National Ins...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c746 (Link to this contribution) The idea of a censure motion is interesting, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for advan...
Andrew Love | 478 c746 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c746 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once more, but then I must make some progress.
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c751 (Link to this contribution) Given what the hon. Gentleman has just told us, why does he think that the then Chancellor thought i...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c750-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for calling me to speak and for selecting new clauses 10 and 20 for debate t...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c743-4 (Link to this contribution) I note the tone in the hon. Gentleman's final phrase, but I do not know where he has been over the p...
John Redwood | 478 c744-5 (Link to this contribution) I can see the temptation to make a party point or two in these circumstances, but is there not one v...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c742-3 (Link to this contribution) I have been in this House for 11 years, but I do not think that I have ever seen a Minister so anxio...
Andrew Love | 478 c743 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is speaking very warmly about the 10p tax rate, so will his party give a commitme...
John Redwood | 478 c742 (Link to this contribution) It might speed the debate up if the Minister could clarify this point. Is she now saying that the Ch...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c742 (Link to this contribution) What I have said is that we intend to consider this matter very seriously. We have made it very clea...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c741 (Link to this contribution) At the beginning of the debate, I said that my making a short introduction would enable Back-Bench c...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c745 (Link to this contribution) Various suggestions are being bandied about. I do not consider it my responsibility to be prescripti...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c745 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is in typically generous mood this afternoon as he assesses the Government's dile...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c745 (Link to this contribution) That is true. There was speculation at the beginning of this fiasco as to whether it was a simple er...
Speaker | 478 c737-40 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 12— Basic rate limi...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c737 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Jane Kennedy | 478 c740 (Link to this contribution) Government new clauses 11 and 12 and Government amendment No. 5 put into effect the Chancellor's sta...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c741 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that those of us on the Government Benches much appreciate the approach that my right hon....
Jane Kennedy | 478 c740 (Link to this contribution) There are very sound reasons why the 10p rate was removed in the Budget 2007. Those have been debate...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c741 (Link to this contribution) I have listened very carefully and had conversations with my right hon. Friend and many others who h...
Rob Marris | 478 c741 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend say a little more about this while she is setting the scene? She quoted fr...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c741 (Link to this contribution) I stand by the figures that we have discussed. I have no reason to believe that the 1.1 million figu...
Julia Goldsworthy | 478 c741 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has just said that the Chancellor will return to this issue in the pre-Budget report. W...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c779 (Link to this contribution) I have several hon. Friends who are obviously hoping to offer help at this point.
Jane Kennedy | 478 c779 (Link to this contribution) Yes, households. They have not been fully compensated—to use the phrase—as a result of the changes t...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c779 (Link to this contribution) Yes. I feel as if we are getting close to the most philosophical considerations in this debate. I ha...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c779 (Link to this contribution) May I add to that point? Am I right in thinking that when my right hon. Friend says that the Treasur...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c780 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend. I take his point, and we accept seriously the trust with ...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c779 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way to me again. There are Whips all round the Cham...
Speaker | 478 c781 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Jane Kennedy | 478 c789 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 478 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 5— Coming into force of Part 7...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) I should tell the House that I believe that new clause 6, tabled by the hon. Member for Runnymede an...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c778 (Link to this contribution) I am acknowledging that there are difficulties. The number of people who would be drawn into self-as...
Stewart Hosie | 478 c778 (Link to this contribution) The Minister cannot seriously be suggesting that the need to fill in tax returns is the reason why t...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. There is a much wider group, therefore, than the 1.1 million rem...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) This could be my penultimate intervention. May I bring my right hon. Friend the Minister back to wha...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c779 (Link to this contribution) I made it clear that we were conscious of the fact that 1.1 million people—
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c778 (Link to this contribution) I sense that the right hon. Lady is close to concluding. Can she tell the House what is the cost of ...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c778 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the House will be minded to pass them. We have said that the overall cost of the proposa...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c776 (Link to this contribution) May I explain my logic? What the Minister is saying is entirely consistent with our pressing the new...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c775 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how much more clearly I can say it to my right hon. Friend: that is exactly what we ar...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c776 (Link to this contribution) I knew that I would not persuade the hon. Gentleman. I do not believe that the new clause is necessa...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 478 c775 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Minister back to what the Treasury Committee's report said? We identified the fact th...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c776 (Link to this contribution) I have something to say about my hon. Friend's amendment.
Jeremy Browne | 478 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. I was particularly keen to intervene because the point that the hon. Member for ...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c776 (Link to this contribution) I have already explained why making a report in January is not necessary, as we shall make one in th...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c773 (Link to this contribution) I think that I was right to say at the start of the debate that it would focus on the genuine concer...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 478 c773 (Link to this contribution) There was a lot of conflicting evidence. I well remember the director of the budgetary process comin...
Philip Dunne | 478 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way to me, and my intervention will be bri...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 478 c770-2 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to be speaking on behalf of the Treasury Committee. On Second Reading, I said that the ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c775 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend gives us a general assurance, but we are asking for a specific assurance. When ...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c775 (Link to this contribution) I have been asked whether the proposals will be concrete, whether they will be cast-iron and, by my ...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady has implied that the concern on the Conservative Benches was somehow less genuin...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c774 (Link to this contribution) I note the hon. Gentleman's comments, and he has made his point forcefully. That was a long interven...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c773 (Link to this contribution) No. I shall deal with the opportunism that I have heard from the Opposition parties in a moment. I ...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c769 (Link to this contribution) I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, and he deserves credit for keeping this issue bef...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c769 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed. A year ago amendments were tabled to the Budget by Labour Members, and a considerable ...
Sion Simon | 478 c769 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend saying that the serious changes that will affect the lives of millions of ou...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c768-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, which I think will be found merciful. Let me first, however, comment on the great ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c770 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows the unwritten rules of the House and how they operate. The last say will be...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c770 (Link to this contribution) In a sense, the right hon. Gentleman has answered the question I was going to put to him. Why does h...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c769-70 (Link to this contribution) We can all impute motives to others, but the record says that, when we discussed with the Government...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c768 (Link to this contribution) I am enjoying the right hon. Gentleman's partisan speech, but, on a point of accuracy, the Conservat...
John Redwood | 478 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not recognise the hon. Gentleman's figures, but I do know that poverty has been rising recently...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with both those issues. The hon. Gentleman suggested that I was seeking to be unduly pa...
Lynne Jones | 478 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make it clear to the House that I have never in my life waved my Order Paper—and cer...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c764 (Link to this contribution) I fear that it will be the final chapter in a rather sorry story for the Labour party.
Sion Simon | 478 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has spoken of proposals to find a way out of the problem that have been mad...
John Redwood | 478 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) I urge the Government to think again, and more promptly than their timetable suggests. I do so becau...
Kelvin Hopkins | 478 c767 (Link to this contribution) I recently looked at our history. Between the 1920s Labour Government and the 1980s Conservative Gov...
John Redwood | 478 c767 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made an effective partisan point in his own way. That is also my understandin...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c762-3 (Link to this contribution) I am having difficulty getting to the nub of my argument, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow m...
Rob Marris | 478 c763 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman claims not to have been making a load of partisan points. I shall take his claim ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c762 (Link to this contribution) Only five—well there we go. The right hon. Gentleman's judgment has been immaculate throughout. He ...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c762 (Link to this contribution) I may have had too long a slot earlier, but is the hon. Gentleman familiar with the internet slang t...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c762 (Link to this contribution) That was the motivation, so Labour Members can talk about the politics and I will talk about the 5.3...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c761-2 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely what I am waiting with bated breath to hear the Financial Secretary announce—[Inte...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c761 (Link to this contribution) The odds on the hon. Gentleman reaching his amendment before he sits down are changing as the hours ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c761 (Link to this contribution) We had a long discussion in Committee on precisely that point and I can repeat it for those who were...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is not a betting man but we are. What odds would he give on his touching on one o...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) I am doing precisely that. However, as I have already said, the motivation for the measures was not ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) They are extremely high. I tabled one new clause and one amendment. They are excellent and I recomme...
Speaker | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must not have sedentary interventions.
Jeremy Browne | 478 c759 (Link to this contribution) I am getting to the point, but the Labour party could learn much from the process because it is inst...
Sion Simon | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman told the Tories five minutes ago that one had to be careful about ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The second phase was the extremely successful rebellion that the...
Sion Simon | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made it clear that he distrusts the motivation of the Prime Minister when he ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c760 (Link to this contribution) I will give way again to the hon. Gentleman so that he can tell me which of the 5.3 million househol...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c759 (Link to this contribution) I will reveal on some other occasion what the website said about the right hon. Member for Wokingham...
David Hamilton | 478 c759 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman get to the point? What is the Liberal position?
Paul Truswell | 478 c757 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of briefly seducing my hon. Friend further, I should say that many older people who have...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c757 (Link to this contribution) About six weeks ago, I was sitting in the front room of a retired miner who had a relatively low ret...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c756 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend and I are both regulars at Treasury questions, and we often express such sentiments a...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c759 (Link to this contribution) I have plenty of thoughts, and I will unveil them all. I should compliment the right hon. Gentleman....
Speaker | 478 c759 (Link to this contribution) Order. With great respect, the hon. Gentleman has spent enough time setting the scene; perhaps he ca...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c757-9 (Link to this contribution) In a manifestly sincere and decent speech, the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Tayl...
John Redwood | 478 c759 (Link to this contribution) In the midst of this diatribe, does the hon. Gentleman have any thoughts on the new clauses before u...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c754-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall be pleased to answer that question, and will do so almost immediately. The abolition of the...
Betty Williams | 478 c755 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a powerful case for new clause 20. I appreciate that he is not a prophet or...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c755-6 (Link to this contribution) I do, and the new loser bands—the bands for those who have residual uncompensated losses—apply to th...
Kelvin Hopkins | 478 c756 (Link to this contribution) Just before my hon. Friend finishes, does he accept that the Government would do well to look at the...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c751-2 (Link to this contribution) The then Chancellor was a very wise and creative politician who had sound reasons for taking his act...
David Hamilton | 478 c752 (Link to this contribution) I am not one of the 21 signatories to my hon. Friend's new clause, but I will be supporting him in t...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c752-3 (Link to this contribution) I can. There are always myths in the area of taxation and accountants grow fat exposing them or some...
Lord Hammond of Runnymede | 478 c754 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being very coherent and I understand his argument, but is he proposing that 18...
David Leslie Taylor | 478 c754 (Link to this contribution) I was just coming to that point, so I shall make it now. New clause 20, to which I am speaking, sits...
John Redwood | 478 c754 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is genuinely trying to find a solution to the problem. Does...
David Gauke | 478 c826 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I merely wished to highlight some of the a...
Rob Marris | 478 c825-6 (Link to this contribution) It is to do with encouraging stable relationships. Historically, although not so much today, that is...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c827-8 (Link to this contribution) I wish to draw on a personal experience, which, although not directly relevant, is sufficiently rele...
Rob Marris | 478 c827 (Link to this contribution) They could apply to married couples, but there is a social imperative, to which I referred in a sort...
Lynne Jones | 478 c827 (Link to this contribution) Why should not those arrangements also apply to married couples?
Rob Marris | 478 c826-7 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the general proposition put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead a...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c828 (Link to this contribution) Actually, nearly all tomorrow's new clauses and amendments amount to yet more damage limitation—
Jeremy Browne | 478 c828 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to explore the Government's position, because it is difficult to understand fully the mo...
Lynne Jones | 478 c828 (Link to this contribution) Surely the Government would not say such a thing, since they have acted to cushion married couples w...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c825 (Link to this contribution) On the historical background, I should say that the prayer book originally said that the purpose of ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c821-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for this opportunity to move the new clause and speak to the amendments, but I will no...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c823 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that if, say, in 2010 the individual allowance were £350,000 per p...
David Gauke | 478 c822 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) on bringing about this debate and ra...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c823 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman acknowledges, the Minister is surely right that if the threshold were £350,000...
David Gauke | 478 c823 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I do agree with that. Indeed, to some extent, the Minister anticipates my argument. I will set ...
Lynne Jones | 478 c824 (Link to this contribution) If that is the case, why did the hon. Gentleman not consider tabling amendments that would have exte...
David Gauke | 478 c823-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, although I think that it will fall on both the Minister and C...
Rob Marris | 478 c825 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the new clause was tabled and I have some sympathy with the predicament that it rai...
David Gauke | 478 c824 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, because it takes me on to the point that I was going to make. T...
David Gauke | 478 c833 (Link to this contribution) My I endorse what was said by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris)? We raised ...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c833 (Link to this contribution) We announced that we would backdate the measure so that it covered existing widows and widowers, but...
Rob Marris | 478 c833 (Link to this contribution) On a slightly tangential matter, I have a constituent who was widowed in 1969 and remains a widow, b...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c833 (Link to this contribution) I repeat that the hon. Gentleman misses the point. First, we raised the threshold up to £350,000 fro...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c833-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether that is yet another example of an unfunded spending commitment from the Conser...
Speaker | 478 c828 (Link to this contribution) Order. Time is going on, but we have not yet reached tomorrow's debate.
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c829 (Link to this contribution) The 10-year period was picked because I thought that there needed to be some ring-fencing of the new...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c828-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. We should not get ahead of ourselves by moving on to the treats that we will be discussing t...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c832 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman completely misses the point. Our proposals related to what happens when property ...
David Gauke | 478 c832 (Link to this contribution) If inheritance tax affects only a tiny or very small minority—I do not know what phrase the Economic...
David Gauke | 478 c833 (Link to this contribution) I fully accept that the amendment relates to siblings, but as the Economic Secretary raises the poin...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c830-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting and useful debate that will enable us to tease out some of the issues t...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c829-30 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because he has helpfully said that ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c831 (Link to this contribution) Given that the Minister said in her opening comments that this provision would apply only to a very ...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) I concede that, and the Government have on occasions been slightly unfairly maligned. A reasonable p...
Brooks Newmark | 478 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to contribute to the debate, but I was so moved by the words of my hon. Friend th...
Stewart Hosie | 478 c804-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to address new clause 5, but in doing so return to the debate that we had in Committee on cla...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c805-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the Government's new clauses on set-off provisions before returning to the points ...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c790-4 (Link to this contribution) First, I shall discuss new clauses 5 and 19. New clause 5 is technically deficient. It is not clear ...
David Gauke | 478 c794-800 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to return to the issue of powers. As the Financial Secretary said, we debated the m...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) In the previous debate I was inaccurately accused of taking insufficient interest in the details of ...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c802 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman is too quick to dismiss the concept of a taxpayer's charter, will he conce...
Speaker | 478 c821 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 1, in clause 8, page 3, li...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c821 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Lembit Opik | 478 c740 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister concludes for now, may I ask her the question that my constituents in Montgomery...
Jane Kennedy | 478 c776 (Link to this contribution) I would like to turn to the question of a report on national insurance contributions and the alignme...
Kitty Ussher | 478 c831-2 (Link to this contribution) My point was that the overall costs would be far larger than simply the cost of accepting the partic...
John Redwood | 478 c768 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. The Leader of the Opposition made a careful and sensible speech f...
Jeremy Browne | 478 c762 (Link to this contribution) It was not me who started it; it was the Prime Minister, with such an appallingly ill-judged electio...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c834 (Link to this contribution) I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn. Further conside...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 478 c745 (Link to this contribution) Let us consider the worst possible scenario. It is an unlikely prospect, but let us suppose that the...
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