Parliamentary search - Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

699 c582-619

Session

2007-08

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Brought from the Commons. In two volumes. (Explanatory Note HL Bill 16-EN published).
Wednesday, 9 January 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Kingsland. I am...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c586-7 (Link to this contribution) I particularly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. If it is necessary to send a...

Show all contributions (88)

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 699 c588-9 (Link to this contribution) I, too, most wholeheartedly support this amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas, requi...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c582 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c585 (Link to this contribution) We, too, have an amendment in this group. If I say that it is more straightforward than that tabled ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c582-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 79: 79: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— ““Pre-sentence report...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c586 (Link to this contribution) The most interesting thing that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said was that 41 per cent—i...

Lord Judd | 699 c585-6 (Link to this contribution) I warmly support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and I also associat...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c595-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for letting me intervene, and I congratulate him on the birth of his...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c595 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I take on board what the n...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c597-9 (Link to this contribution) My attitude to this clause is certainly not condemnatory. However, it is very cautionary. The main i...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c596 (Link to this contribution) My argument is that that mechanism is not working at the moment. I am not here to criticise local au...

Baroness Stern | 699 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) I should like to support both of these amendments. I was astounded to learn that children can be sen...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) I have a lot of sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and I am in comple...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c591 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support both amendments. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, would ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c592-4 (Link to this contribution) It seems a long time since we considered a number of amendments that run very consistently with our ...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c594 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister embarks on the second limb of his argument, will he take into account that he has to...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c594 (Link to this contribution) I was going to come to that point. I have said that the Youth Justice Board national standards alrea...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c594 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me for interrupting. Does that mean that the list the Minister has just read out is in relat...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c595 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to that point. Paragraph 4.1 of the national standards says that the assessment tool, k...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c609 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for his reply. Like the Prison Service, the Probation Service is ...

Lord Bach | 699 c610 (Link to this contribution) What we say here, as I understand it—if I am wrong, I will be corrected—is that a community sentence...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c610 (Link to this contribution) I entirely understand what the Government’s motive is; I am simply suggesting to the noble Lord that...

Lord Bach | 699 c610-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 80A: 80A: Clause 13, page 10, line 9, leave out ““in any part of the United Ki...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c610 (Link to this contribution) Precisely. Why, therefore, do the Government want to go beyond that in Clause 12?

Lord Bach | 699 c610 (Link to this contribution) In Clause 12, we are setting out, as I understand it, various guidelines for the court to follow. We...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c612 (Link to this contribution) Now that the Minister has given that explanation—which took two Ministers to discover—does he think ...

Lord Bach | 699 c612 (Link to this contribution) The whole world is involved because British service personnel can sometimes be found in any country ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c611 (Link to this contribution) Why are the words, "““in any part of the United Kingdom””," being omitted? Does that mean that the ...

Lord Bach | 699 c611 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for rising very slowly to my feet; the noble Lord deserves an answer. The phrase is bein...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c606 (Link to this contribution) For the Lord Chancellor and the Minister to be correct in their belief that there would be more comm...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c606-7 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will agree that my opposition to Clause 10 standing part of the Bill has co...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c607 (Link to this contribution) No, the noble Lord should not read anything into that.

Lord Kingsland | 699 c607 (Link to this contribution) My hopes were momentarily lifted.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c607 (Link to this contribution) I was responding to the request of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, for further information. I have cert...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c607 (Link to this contribution) We are also equally bald.

Lord Kingsland | 699 c607 (Link to this contribution) This is an important issue. The Minister can be in no doubt that I shall come back to the matter on ...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c607-8 (Link to this contribution) My concerns are with Clause 12(5), which inserts new subsection (1A)(b) into Section 151 of the Crim...

Lord Bach | 699 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, on the point that he makes in this debate on Clause 1...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c618 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not agree that, if the interpretation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd,...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c618 (Link to this contribution) If the interpretation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, of the amendment is correct, then e...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c618 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not accept that if one increases the threshold to five years, the number of thos...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c618 (Link to this contribution) I accept that absolutely and see the attractions of what the noble and learned Lord says. The diffic...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c619 (Link to this contribution) We are considering the matter. As far as I understand it, as of tonight we are still considering our...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c619 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c619 (Link to this contribution) None the less, Parliament has legislated for this provision and widely debated it. It must have sati...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) Can an outsider join this conversation between four learned Members of the Committee? Ought one not ...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c619 (Link to this contribution) That is a characteristically perspicacious intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen. The...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c612 (Link to this contribution) I was referring not so much to the place as to the jurisdiction of anywhere in the world. The Minist...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c612 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 81: 81: Clause 13, page 10, leave out lines 11 and 12 The noble Lord said: Th...

Viscount Ullswater | 699 c613 (Link to this contribution) I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall be unable to call Amendment...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c617 (Link to this contribution) So am I.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c617 (Link to this contribution) My initial understanding is that the interpretation of the noble and learned Lord is correct. Howeve...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) My view is that the amendment says what I said that it said when I opened this debate. However, I am...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c613-4 (Link to this contribution) I had intended to make a rather lengthy speech on this amendment, but in view of the time I shall cu...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c615-7 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting introduction to a number of amendments that we shall deal with in relat...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c599 (Link to this contribution) I hope I will remember the story of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, about all splendid law refo...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c599-600 (Link to this contribution) In another place, my honourable friend David Heath drew the attention of the Members to the Adult Co...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c600-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, that a number of claus...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c599 (Link to this contribution) I must make the following contribution to this debate. This clause says that to reduce the prison po...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 699 c599 (Link to this contribution) I follow what my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew has just said. The Committee should remember t...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c605 (Link to this contribution) I have already referred to the court bench book and to what level of sentencing is being considered....

Earl of Onslow | 699 c605 (Link to this contribution) If you arrive at the place where you have to send somebody to prison and cannot not send them to pri...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c605 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry for being so obtuse in responding to the question at first. That is of course correct, al...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, but perhaps the Minister may have misunderstood my question. If the bench of magistrates...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c604 (Link to this contribution) I would expect them to use all of the options that are available in community sentencing.

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c604 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to this debate with great interest and trying to understand where the Governme...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c604 (Link to this contribution) All of those comments have been helpful, and I will of course study the remarks with interest. Howev...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c603-4 (Link to this contribution) I want to make one point, to which I unashamedly admit I forgot to refer in my earlier intervention....

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c605 (Link to this contribution) But the point is that we are talking about 30,000 magistrates and their individual decisions. Clearl...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c606 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, there is no wide area. Once the hoops have been gone through, the court h...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c602 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that magistrates are not following the book to which I referred and the proce...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c601-2 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, up-tariffing. Noble Lords then would argue about the fact that these offences must have...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c602 (Link to this contribution) Before Report stage, can we have some serious investigation into the custody threshold level? Either...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c602 (Link to this contribution) I am very hesitant to stand here and criticise the work of magistrates. The noble Lord may draw that...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c601 (Link to this contribution) From looking at those extra suspended sentences that have been imposed, has the Home Office discover...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c601 (Link to this contribution) It is a fair question. I cannot say that each case has been looked at individually. The concern has ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c602-3 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to see what I can provide. I am not guaranteeing that I can provide the hard evidence tha...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c603 (Link to this contribution) Before we proceed, perhaps I may pick up on what the noble Lord said about not wishing to criticise ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 699 c603 (Link to this contribution) I can understand deeply why the magistrates are saying that. It is trivialising the whole thing to b...

Lord Bach | 699 c619 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I propose that the Committee stag...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c619 (Link to this contribution) What is the state of the litigation? I understood that in the High Court—in one case, at any rate—th...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c607 (Link to this contribution) Well, I cannot criticise the noble Lord for looking at me while replying to my noble friend Lord Ons...

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c614-5 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, I shall be brief. In the context of this amendment, I h...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c589 (Link to this contribution) I well appreciate and respect the principles and the desires underlying Amendments Nos. 79 and 80. I...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c591 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak briefly in support of these amendments, partly from my experience as a local council...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c617 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept the interpretation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, of the amendm...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c596-7 (Link to this contribution) We now pass from issues special to children and young people to more general questions of sentencing...

Subjects

Criminal proceedings

Children in care

Administration of justice

Sentencing

Standards

Young offenders

Social services

Legislation

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08

Link

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