Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My view is that the amendment says what I said that it said when I opened this debate. However, I am happy to talk to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, between now and Report. If his view proves correct, as it frequently does, I shall recast the amendment accordingly in time for Report. The real problem with IPPs and prison place availability is that if you are in prison for an IPP and have served your minimum term, you cannot get out without being rehabilitated. Rehabilitation requires considerable educational input by experts on the prison premises, and equally requires the prisoner, as a result of going through this process, to have manifestly changed his outlook on life. It is currently quite impossible to initiate, let alone complete, these processes because of the overcrowding. IPPs are not merely not working at the level which the Government now seek to exclude, they are not working full stop. This is why there is so much discontent in our prisons among those who have been sentenced to an IPP: they are simply not being given an opportunity to get out of jail. Until that issue is resolved—and it cannot be resolved in the present state of overcrowding—we will not see much constructive progress in this area, whatever the outcome of this clause in the Bill. My difficulty with the clause is that the length of the sentence and the assessment of dangerousness are wholly unconnected. The fact that somebody has been given a sentence with a minimum tariff of two years—which means that the IPP will no longer be applied to him if the Bill gets through—is completely irrelevant to the judge’s view of his likelihood of committing a dangerous offence in the future. That is why the Government are being illogical. The question of the risk and the question of the level of sentence for the actual offence committed are completely separate issues dealt with in a completely separate way by the judge. Of course, I agree with all Members of the Committee who say that IPPs are not only contributing seriously to prison overcrowding but also affecting the psychological state of many prisoners. That is true. However, with great respect to the Minister, the way that he is going about solving this problem is wholly illogical. We owe a duty to the public to protect them from dangerous people. If judges make an assessment that these people are dangerous, even though they have given a sentence which has a minimum tariff of two years, we must still accept the judgment of the court. That is why I find the Government’s approach so difficult to accept.