UK Parliament / Open data

European Union (Amendment) Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 29 January 2008, in the House of Commons.
European Union (Amendment) Bill. Committee stage first day. Clause 1 agreed to on question. Amendment 214 negatived on division (170 to 353). Amendment 8 negatived on division (165 to 352).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
471 c238-85 
Session
2007-08
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
European Union (Amendment) Bill. (Explanatory note Bill 48-EN published).
Monday, 17 December 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c274 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?
Jim Murphy | 471 c274 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way further. I have already said so. Operational action by—

Show all contributions (162)
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c274 (Link to this contribution) Order. It must be fairly clear to the hon. Gentleman that the Minister is not going to give way—
Jim Murphy | 471 c274 (Link to this contribution) Europol is by no means a new concept. Its establishment was agreed in the Maastricht treaty and it w...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c275 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is an abuse of our procedures. The hon. Gentleman is taking up time on a bogus point of ...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c275 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. My point of order is very simple. The present arrest warrant already ...
Lord Deben | 471 c275 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. It is very difficult for Conservative Members to hear the Minister. H...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c275 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we are governed by the motion that the House passed yeste...
Mark Francois | 471 c276-7 (Link to this contribution) I realise that in the few moments available I cannot reprise the whole of yesterday's debate on the ...
Jim Murphy | 471 c275-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall turn to new clause 4. The UK benefits hugely from our participation in EU agreements on poli...
Jim Murphy | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) Turning to amendments Nos. 8, 9, 10, 212 and 136—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, the Chair is not responsible for the content of what either the...
Richard Shepherd | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. I regret saying this, but we addressing amendments in Committee, but ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order. He has put his view on the record ...
Lord Lilley | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. Could you explain to the Minister that if he wants more time, the Com...
Jim Murphy | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that I have a short amount of ti...
Jim Murphy | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. The hon. Member for Rayleigh will speak at the end of this debate.
Jim Murphy | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. [Hon. Members: ““Give way!””] Those amendments would prevent the UK from implementi...
Jim Murphy | 471 c273-4 (Link to this contribution) If I had known that the question was so straightforward, I would have happily given way earlier. The...
Dominic Grieve | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) What I seek is clarification of the point that my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin...
Jim Murphy | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) I gave way on dozens of occasions yesterday, but in the interests of keeping the hon. Member for Bea...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) I have to say to the hon. Gentleman— ... Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot expect the Chair to rule o...
Nicholas Winterton | 471 c273 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. Can you rule on whether the Minister is trampling on the traditions a...
Philip Davies | 471 c267 (Link to this contribution) Does this not relate to subsidiarity? Subsidiarity does not mean that nation states can decide which...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c267 (Link to this contribution) Yes. Moreover, the final court that decides a subsidiarity case will be the European Court of Justic...
George Howarth | 471 c267 (Link to this contribution) I followed closely the right hon. Gentleman's comparison between the American constitution and the e...
Richard Shepherd | 471 c268 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend's observations on the connection with the Supreme Court under Marshall draw an ...
Lord Lilley | 471 c268 (Link to this contribution) The defence of the provisions that we are seeking to amend has so far fallen to the hon. Member for ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 471 c269 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making a serious point. Does he agree that people in many continental co...
Lord Lilley | 471 c269 (Link to this contribution) That may be true. The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, but it is not necessary for my argument. ...
Lord Brady of Altrincham | 471 c269-70 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to have an opportunity to make a brief contribution to the debate. I know that a numb...
Lord Brady of Altrincham | 471 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point in his customary trenchant and powerful way. It is not just ...
Jim Murphy | 471 c271 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to respond to the various points that have been made in Committee and delighted that ...
Nicholas Winterton | 471 c270 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is developing a most interesting point. Would he direct his attention to the European...
Jim Murphy | 471 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall do so happily. There are 82 proposals under third pillar consideration. Proposal 78, which d...
Kelvin Hopkins | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend concerned that the ECJ has made two recent rulings against trade unionists in Finl...
Jim Murphy | 471 c271 (Link to this contribution) With your indulgence, Sir Alan, I shall give way a couple of times and then make progress.
Lord Lilley | 471 c271 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister give a single example of agreements made under the third pillar that have not stuck...
Jim Murphy | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it clear that the benefits of justice and home affairs co-operation are in the UK's n...
Jim Murphy | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) I am not certain that that is the case. We believe in an economy that is flexible and liberal but co...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c272 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but there is too much sedentary noise in Committee. I s...
Mark Francois | 471 c239 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 214, page 1, line 12, after 'excluding', insert—
Mark Francois | 471 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to rehearse yesterday's arguments about the business motion, which the House debated...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c239-41 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 132,  page 1, line 12, after...
William Cash | 471 c239 (Link to this contribution) I repeat what I said in an intervention to the Minister. The new Union that is created by the merger...
Chris Huhne | 471 c239 (Link to this contribution) Following on from the remarks of the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), it is clear from the ...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c239 (Link to this contribution) The reason why the clause should not stand part is that the Government have so far failed to explain...
Mark Francois | 471 c242 (Link to this contribution) I have heard that argument made in some quarters and I thank my hon. Friend for raising it. On this ...
Humfrey Malins | 471 c242 (Link to this contribution) I am following carefully my hon. Friend's remarks about changes in our criminal law system. Does he ...
Peter Bone | 471 c242 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend referred to human trafficking. Is he aware that the Council of Europe and its 47 memb...
Dominic Grieve | 471 c246 (Link to this contribution) The issue that the hon. Gentleman has not addressed concerns the source of justice within a nation s...
Chris Huhne | 471 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) I said very clearly that it is not a question of taking precedence over anything that is done by our...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c245 (Link to this contribution) It is a very simple question. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that a European prosecutor would have the...
Chris Huhne | 471 c245 (Link to this contribution) It is not a question of taking precedence but of doing something that is not being done. This is an ...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c245 (Link to this contribution) I want to be clear about this. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that a prosecutor at European level ...
Chris Huhne | 471 c245 (Link to this contribution) Let me start with the point raised by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart). Having ...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 471 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a few brief comments on the office of the European public prosecutor, to which amendm...
Mark Francois | 471 c242-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has raised an important point. My understanding is that the convention against human ...
Dominic Grieve | 471 c246 (Link to this contribution) Prosecutions in this country are brought by the Crown. Nobody else brings prosecutions. The Crown is...
Chris Huhne | 471 c246 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not. There is a fundamental difference, which the hon. Gentleman does not seem to have ta...
Chris Huhne | 471 c246 (Link to this contribution) I think the seismic change would be if there were any change in the arrangements for trying an offen...
Peter Bone | 471 c247 (Link to this contribution) I must be misunderstanding the English language. Surely a consensus is the view of the great majorit...
Richard Shepherd | 471 c247 (Link to this contribution) That goes to the centre of much of our uncertainty and doubt. We have a language too. Consensus has ...
Chris Huhne | 471 c247 (Link to this contribution) That is simply the way that it has always been described as regards the European Council. Let us rem...
Richard Shepherd | 471 c247 (Link to this contribution) It may be that those years so nativised the hon. Gentleman that he cannot see the distinction in our...
Chris Huhne | 471 c248 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, because the hon. Gentleman makes it clear that the provision is...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c248 (Link to this contribution) May I help the hon. Gentleman on the definition of the word ““consensus””? At the conclusion of the ...
Chris Huhne | 471 c248 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is well versed in these issues, but despite his point he does not yet have ...
Chris Huhne | 471 c249 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way again. I end by repeating that we will not support the amendments.
Chris Huhne | 471 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) The reality is that the provision is substantially stronger than what was proposed in the constituti...
Mark Francois | 471 c248 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's argument is not carrying the House with him. He might have been able to carry L...
Chris Huhne | 471 c250 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I agree that we are talking about the rights of British citizens. Ho...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c250 (Link to this contribution) I should be delighted, as the hon. Gentleman has been a real asset to the debate.
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c249 (Link to this contribution) I enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne). This Chamber lacks sponta...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c263 (Link to this contribution) Yes, Tesco, and people are being encouraged to vote online. The real problem is that people will vot...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c263 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right, and such provisions will render general elections something of a f...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the amendment ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) ...
Philip Davies | 471 c263 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the problem with the opt-in provisions, which are much vaunted ...
Dominic Grieve | 471 c262 (Link to this contribution) I think that I am nodding in full agreement. Uncertainty surrounds the way in which the clause will ...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c262 (Link to this contribution) Of course, and at risk of extending my comments by a mere extra minute, I may say that my hon. Frien...
Mark Harper | 471 c261 (Link to this contribution) We will also lose another powerful tool—the ability to hold people to account for the quality of the...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) I am wary of highlighting the deficiency of present agreements, because people will no doubt claim t...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c261 (Link to this contribution) I, too, shall be brief. The exclusions included in the amendments are very important, for a reason ...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c267 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. As I said in a previous debate, I do not regard the European Court of Justi...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c266 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly true that in the treaty there are many references to the exchange of information. It...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c266 (Link to this contribution) I believe that if the treaty is ratified we will have undermined our powers of self-government to th...
Kelvin Hopkins | 471 c263 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether my point will be welcome to the right hon. Gentleman, but CREST—the Centre for...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c263-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman puts it better than I could. In a general election, we all engage in a contest, a...
Lord Brady of Altrincham | 471 c265 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend concerned that if he were in a position to turn the tap off, that may, under...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c265-6 (Link to this contribution) We could all be in court if the treaty goes through; my hon. Friend has made a shrewd and accurate p...
William Cash | 471 c253 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. It will not surprise my right hon. Friend to learn that I have a lot of material on that...
William Cash | 471 c253 (Link to this contribution) If the fools who make such statements have listened to the arguments that those who have considered ...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c253 (Link to this contribution) May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to article 69B, which reinforces his point? It would give the ...
William Cash | 471 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 132, 133, 136 and 137 in this group were tabled in my name. They are supported by 20...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c252 (Link to this contribution) The term ““xenophobia”” has been applied by supporters of the treaty to its opponents. Would it be l...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c251 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. If we seriously think that the proposals that we are considering will improve our sy...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c250 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. His commitment to the rights of UK citizens is clear in everyth...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 471 c250 (Link to this contribution) I am convinced that the UK has the right to defend its citizens wherever they are. From the age of 1...
William Cash | 471 c255 (Link to this contribution) Precisely. As I said in a recent debate, what we want is British law for British judges and British ...
Richard Shepherd | 471 c255 (Link to this contribution) The concept of mutual recognition has bothered the House before, and for very good reasons. It means...
Chris Huhne | 471 c254 (Link to this contribution) On that point, one of the provisions in the justice and home affairs part of the treaty establishes ...
William Cash | 471 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) Mutual recognition will take pride of place in the new Lisbon treaty; I could give the hon. Gentlema...
Philip Davies | 471 c255 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) is trying to pretend that...
Chris Huhne | 471 c254 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
William Cash | 471 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. My hon. Friend is also a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, and we have looked i...
William Cash | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) No, the hon. Gentleman did not say it.
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disagree with the hon. Gentleman, but there is an example. One of the previous UK pres...
William Cash | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to hear of that one example. I am indebted to the hon. Lady for that revelation. At last I...
Chris Huhne | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was not listening.
William Cash | 471 c255 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. My very good friend summarises the position well. Indeed, that is what is bringing Conse...
William Cash | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the hon. Member for Eastleigh should walk into that one. The fact is that there ...
Chris Huhne | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) I would like to cite the article to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. Article 61B states:"““Nat...
William Cash | 471 c255-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman must take his medicine; he certainly deserves it. I am not going to exempt the M...
William Cash | 471 c259 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend is a former shadow Europe Minister and he knows in detail about s...
Humfrey Malins | 471 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, because other colleagues wish to speak. I want to discuss criminal justice and cou...
Philip Davies | 471 c260 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making, as usual, a powerful point. He mentioned our ability to address deficienci...
Humfrey Malins | 471 c261 (Link to this contribution) That could well happen, whereas at the moment, these matters are in our hands. If we get something w...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c257 (Link to this contribution) At risk of revisiting old debates, subsidiarity is of course a double-edged sword. I have frequently...
William Cash | 471 c256 (Link to this contribution) I most certainly was listening. I always listen to everything the hon. Member for Eastleigh says bec...
Peter Bone | 471 c258 (Link to this contribution) One of the Government's arguments for accepting this part of the treaty was that it would help to so...
William Cash | 471 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear that, but my hon. Friend has to be a bit careful here because subsidiarity is...
Lord Brady of Altrincham | 471 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) On article 69D, my hon. Friend spoke earlier about the occasionally sloppy language used, but it is ...
William Cash | 471 c258 (Link to this contribution) That is one of the reasons why so many of us believe that the European Union does not work. It is fu...
Jim Murphy | 471 c238 (Link to this contribution) Clause 1 defines the treaty of Lisbon for the purposes of the Act. The definition of the treaty of L...
Speaker | 471 c237 (Link to this contribution) Order. If this is pursuant to the point of order already raised, I have nothing further to say. A ru...
Jim Murphy | 471 c238 (Link to this contribution) It is not my intention to engage in a detailed debate about the processes, the themes or the amendme...
William Cash | 471 c238 (Link to this contribution) Of course. The Minister may be right in saying that that is what the treaty states on the face of th...
Simon Hughes | 471 c237 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. ... It is a separate point of order in relation to yester...
Mark Francois | 471 c238 (Link to this contribution) Because of the limited time that we have to deal with amendments to this important part of the treat...
Speaker | 471 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) I remind the hon. Gentleman that it would be inappropriate for him to read out his remarks. His poin...
David Howarth | 471 c236 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Clerk is about to read the Orders of the Day, so that...
David Howarth | 471 c237 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In light of that ruling, is it Mr. Speaker's p...
Speaker | 471 c237 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman of the ruling that I just gave? Mr. Speaker's position is as ...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c267-8 (Link to this contribution) No. If the right hon. Gentleman was following my argument, he would know that I was simply illustrat...
William Cash | 471 c254 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. I am simply making a generalised point, which is that the significance of w...
Jim Murphy | 471 c274 (Link to this contribution) No. First, we have extended our opt-in to apply to those provisions. That means that we cannot be o...
James Clappison | 471 c267 (Link to this contribution) Is it also my right hon. Friend's understanding that where the European Court of Justice interprets ...
Bernard Jenkin | 471 c266 (Link to this contribution) Would it be true to say that if an identity card were introduced to this country, it could come unde...
Nicholas Winterton | 471 c266 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to my right hon. Friend, whose knowledge of the European Union is profound....
Chris Huhne | 471 c246-7 (Link to this contribution) Having given way on several occasions, let me turn to amendment No. 214. Just like the hon. Member f...
James Clappison | 471 c253 (Link to this contribution) While my hon. Friend is on article 69B and the interesting phrase ““offences with a cross-border dim...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 471 c268 (Link to this contribution) That is my proposition. Ultimately, the treaty is about the comparative powers of member states vis-...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 471 c239 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is not the subject of the clause 1 stand part debate. Question put and agreed to. Clau...
Richard Shepherd | 471 c250 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady has touched on something that all of us in the Chamber understand. The importance of o...
Subjects
Administration of justice
European Union
European communities
EU institutions
Police
Treaties
European Court of Justice
Treaty of Lisbon
Legislation
European Union (Amendment) Bill 2007-08
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