Offender Management Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 12 June 2007, in the House of Lords.

Offender Management Bill. Lords Committee stage sixth day. Clause 31 negatived on question. Bill reported with amendments. (HL Bill 78 2006-07).

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

692 c1593-658,1675-96

Session

2006-07

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Offender Management Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 47-EN also published.
Thursday, 1 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Offender Management Bill. As amended in Committee.
Tuesday, 12 June 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1683 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 133 to 134: 133: Schedule 3, page 32, line 30, at end insert— ““Local Govern...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1683-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 135: 135: Schedule 5, page 38, line 13, at end insert— On Question, amendment...

Show all contributions (138)

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1680-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 132: 132: Schedule 3, page 32, line 30, at end insert— ““Children Act 2004 (c....

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1683 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the government amendment. It reflects fairly on the discussion that was held in another pl...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1691 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I must say that I was glad to be in the Chamber to hear the remarkable, hea...

Lord Low of Dalston | 692 c1691-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, strongly support the amendment. Although I have not played an extensive part in the delibera...

Lord Judd | 692 c1687-9 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord and pay him an unreserved tribute. He has brought very special qualities to...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1689-90 (Link to this contribution) If I ever have the honour to serve in this House for the length of time that the noble Lord, Lord Ju...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 692 c1684 (Link to this contribution) I advise the Committee that if Amendment No. 136 is agreed to, I cannot call AmendmentNo. 137 becaus...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1684-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 136: 136: Clause 38, page 24, line 15, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 692 c1695 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I should like to add that we have had a useful Committee stage, looki...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1695 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, says, but one has to will the means if one wis...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1696 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the tone and detail of her reply, and echo the words of both the noble Lord...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1696 (Link to this contribution) I must disabuse the noble Lord of that. There seems to have been a mistake made on the presentation....

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1692-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the careful and thoughtful way in which all noble Lords have responded to this deb...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1696 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected; I was going on the basis of the document that I had. We shall come to Report, I h...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1650-1 (Link to this contribution) The Government fully agree with the intention underlying the amendment, which is to ensure high stan...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1651-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the amendment. As the noble Baroness,...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 692 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment in exactly the same terms as the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. At one or two ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I also support the new clause in the amendment. We all know the situation facing us; far too many pe...

Lord Judd | 692 c1654-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 126: 126: After Clause 32, insert the following new Clause— ““Mental health di...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I warmly support the amendment in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and my noble friend Lord R...

Lord Judd | 692 c1657-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that reply. This is one of those difficult situations that are not unfam...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1658 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to. ...

Viscount Bridgeman | 692 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution) We on the Conservative Benches support this amendment and those of your Lordships who have spoken on...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) This is one of those occasions when one can be reasonably happy in saying that there is not a great ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1675-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 128: 128: After Clause 32, insert the following new Clause— ““Rehabilitation o...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1676 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham in calling for a review of the Rehabilitation of Offenders...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1676-7 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I love the inclusion of the notion of redemption—it is really importa...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1677 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. The idea of rehabilitation is at the back of what we are all trying to achi...

Lord Hylton | 692 c1677-8 (Link to this contribution) My impression is that the 1974 Act has worked only moderately well in England and Wales and may have...

Viscount Bridgeman | 692 c1678 (Link to this contribution) We have heard from all sides of the Committee that the proposals in the report of 2002 have not been...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1678-80 (Link to this contribution) This has been another short, valuable debate where there has been a great comity of view among its c...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1680 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his detailed response. I also thank all those who took part in the debate. ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1680 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 129: 129: Clause 33, page 23, line 1, leave out ““under”” and insert ““or regu...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1680 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 131: 131: Schedule 3, page 32, line 30, at end insert— ““Race Relations Act 19...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1593 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1593-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 106: 106: Clause 15, page 10, line 43, at end insert— ““( ) A worker at a cont...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1601 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 108: 108: Clause 19, page 12, line 25, at end insert— ““(4A) The reference in p...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1599-601 (Link to this contribution) I am sure it will come as no surprise when I give the assurance that there is little between us in t...

Lord Dholakia | 692 c1601 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his helpful explanation. In the light of what he has said, I beg l...

Lord Dholakia | 692 c1598 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 107: 107: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause— ““Establishments (...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1598-9 (Link to this contribution) It is always important to ensure that those who carry out custodial duties are the appropriate peopl...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1595-7 (Link to this contribution) I say straightaway to the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe and Lady Linklater, that we are confident that...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1597-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all those who contributed to this short debate. I am not entirely reassured by the ...

Earl of Listowel | 692 c1595 (Link to this contribution) Since the Minister was absent at an earlier stage of the Committee, perhaps I may ask her about supe...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1595 (Link to this contribution) We have covered much of this ground previously, so I shall not reiterate the arguments. However, it ...

Viscount Bridgeman | 692 c1595 (Link to this contribution) We accept wholeheartedly the principle behind the amendment; we are just concerned that the qualific...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1605-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112: 112: Clause 22, page 17, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““(...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1606-7 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment and wish to add a little to what my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham ha...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1604 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that we can table an amendment in agreement and in concert with the noble Baroness.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1605 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I know that the Government try to do best practice by tabling their a...

Lord Hylton | 692 c1605 (Link to this contribution) I noted what the Minister said about reconsidering particular bits of the drafting. While that is ha...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1602-3 (Link to this contribution) I support two of these three amendments, and I do so because I remember that when the European Conve...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1603-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling these amendments and I hope that, on hearing my resp...

Viscount Bridgeman | 692 c1607 (Link to this contribution) I, too, was disappointed to see this provision in the Bill, which seems like another ingredient in t...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1610 (Link to this contribution) All noble Lords who have spoken agree that prison health services are getting better, but the point ...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1608-10 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for tabling the amendment. Although it has been on...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1607-8 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support everything that has been said about the amendment. All the points made are absolutel...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 692 c1607 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I listened to my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham from the Bar. Yesterday, I ha...

Baroness Masham of Ilton | 692 c1610 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will answer my question about the worry that doctors have when prisoners have t...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1610 (Link to this contribution) I think that I can confirm that that is the case, but I made the point that we were not uncritical a...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1610 (Link to this contribution) Of course we accept that things are improving and it is good to know that extra funding is going int...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1610 (Link to this contribution) I think I made the point earlier that it was important to have multi-disciplinary teams whose member...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1611 (Link to this contribution) Prisons are obsessed, quite rightly, with seeing that escort arrangements are in place whatever the ...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1611 (Link to this contribution) I have considered carefully what the noble Lord has said. I love the way in which he left the door w...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1611 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for telling us what the arrangements are and that perhaps my concerns ...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1612-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112A: 112A: After Clause 23, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent Mo...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1611-2 (Link to this contribution) Given that assurance, I am happy to withdraw the amendment at this stage with the proviso that I hav...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1613-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Stern for proposing the amendment, which the Government are ve...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1613 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, which underlines the central importance in the Bill of IMBs, once the board...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1614-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112B: 112B: After Clause 23, insert the following new Clause— ““Offender Manag...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1616-7 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this important and helpful amendment. We are trying to move from management-speak to...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1615-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for moving the amendment. As we discussed Part 1 o...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1621-2 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s important amendment, having had the pleasure of seeing an improvement in...

Lord Northbourne | 692 c1620-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112C: 112C: Before Clause 24, insert the following new Clause— ““Duty to promo...

Lord Ramsbotham | 692 c1619-20 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for the comprehensive way in which she responded to the amendment...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1619 (Link to this contribution) I am aware of that potential difficulty but I believe that it will be overcome because noble Lords h...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1619 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will know that the whole Committee is grateful to hear the Government’s view that they ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1617-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank all those who have spoken, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who has an insatiab...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1617 (Link to this contribution) I certainly support the concerns behind the amendment; I am perhaps a little ambivalent about the ne...

Lord Hylton | 692 c1623 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. My noble friend Lord Northbourne has already given some evidence from Engl...

Bishop of Chelmsford | 692 c1622-3 (Link to this contribution) From these Benches, I also very much support this amendment. I remember, not so very long ago, stand...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1627-30 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for providing us with the opportunity to discuss ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1625-7 (Link to this contribution) I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, on giving the Committee...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 692 c1630-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Clauses 25 and 26, which raise the same point. My purpose in opposing Clause 2...

Lord Northbourne | 692 c1630 (Link to this contribution) I am always happy to withdraw an amendment when the noble Baroness smiles at me. I am enormously imp...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1624-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. We welcome the Government’s amendment that places in the Bill, under ...

Lord Judd | 692 c1623-4 (Link to this contribution) I warmly support the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. Whether or not the amendment becom...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1625 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to the amendment. Almost everything that I would have said myself has been said, so...

Earl of Listowel | 692 c1625 (Link to this contribution) I also support my noble friend’s amendment and, in doing so, focus on one question about the booking...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1632 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 692 c1631-2 (Link to this contribution) We share many of the hesitations that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has express...

Lord Judd | 692 c1644 (Link to this contribution) I must apologise for being temporarily absent when the noble Baroness introduced the amendment. Ther...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1642 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 120 and 121: 120: Clause 30, page 21, line 13, leave out paragraph (b) 121...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1642-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 124: 124: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— ““Young offenders ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1642 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118: 118: Clause 30, page 21, line 7, leave out paragraph (b) On Question, am...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1642 (Link to this contribution) In my note on the Marshalled List, I wrote, ““Listen and heartily welcome””. On Question, amendment...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1641-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 116: 116: Clause 30, page 21, line 1, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Baron...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, for her, as ever, thoughtful contribution. Her ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1640 (Link to this contribution) As I have tried to make clear, we do not see this as a major departure. The secure provision is used...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1640 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister acknowledge the key difference between secure children’s home accommodation, which...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1635 (Link to this contribution) I do not propose to go into the rights or wrongs of having the trial; we satisfactorily debated that...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1635-6 (Link to this contribution) The reason I did not go through the details was that I rather assumed, perhaps presumptuously, that ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1636 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 115: 115: Clause 30, page 20, line 39, leave out from ““for”” to ““, and”” and...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1637-8 (Link to this contribution) Clause 30 is designed to remove the requirement that children given a DTO by the court—which means t...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1632-4 (Link to this contribution) I think a number of Members of the Committee were quite enchanted by it. My noble friend says it is ...

Viscount Bridgeman | 692 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I made them to enable me to commit a classic malapropism.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1635 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 114: 114: Clause 25, page 19, line 18, at end insert— ““(8) The power to make ...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 692 c1634-5 (Link to this contribution) I was not aware that a pilot study had already taken place, nor that it is proposed that three furth...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for seeking to rise a little too hastily to my feet. I thank the noble Viscount for his ...

Viscount Bridgeman | 692 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make it clear that we are not opposing the introduction of the clause. I want to co...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 692 c1650 (Link to this contribution) I add a brief word of support for the amendment. One can hardly listen without pity to the account t...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1648 (Link to this contribution) Not-Content.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1648-9 (Link to this contribution) We all got there in the end. I tabled Amendment No. 125 in response to a very helpful briefing from ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1648 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Chairman of Committees. He is acting properly on behalf of the Committee. He knows that ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1648 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 125: 125: Clause 32, page 22, line 27, at end insert— ““( ) After paragraph 1 ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1650 (Link to this contribution) What has been described is so degrading a way to treat human beings that it is appalling to hear it....

Lord Judd | 692 c1650 (Link to this contribution) I rise to add a brief word of support for this self-evidently valid amendment; it has been powerfull...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1649-50 (Link to this contribution) This subject deserves a lot more attention than we are likely to be able to give it at this stage of...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1649 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I too received the briefing of the Standing Committee for Youth Justice and...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1647 (Link to this contribution) Content.

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 692 c1647 (Link to this contribution) No you are not. We are on Clause 31. You do not want it to stand part of the Bill. The Question is t...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 692 c1645 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this probing amendment. Quite a number of us in the Chamber do not think young offen...

Lord Hylton | 692 c1644-5 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is right to move this probing amendment. Every day as I come to work here, I see the...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1646-7 (Link to this contribution) I recognise and understand the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, my noble friend ...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1647 (Link to this contribution) I should make two points. First, we have to face the reality in terms of flexibility and the importa...

Lord Judd | 692 c1647 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, she has been very helpful in her reply but will she just clarify s...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 692 c1647 (Link to this contribution) The Question is that Clause 31 stand part of the Bill? As many as are of that opinion will say ““Con...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1647 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her response; however, I am slightly unenthusiastic about it. I shoul...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1601-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 109: 109: Clause 19, page 13, line 3, at end insert ““prison rules or by”” Th...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 692 c1604 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the Minister has to read into the record why the Government think Amendments Nos. ...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 692 c1605 (Link to this contribution) No doubt parliamentary counsel will look at the rest of the clause, but knowing parliamentary counse...

Baroness Stern | 692 c1614 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord very much for that helpful, encouraging reply. We seem to have been singing f...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 692 c1622 (Link to this contribution) I, too, very much support the amendment. As a judge in my previous life, I had considerable experien...

Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 692 c1638-40 (Link to this contribution) I understand the concern that a custodial sentence should be distinguishable from other types of sen...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 692 c1645 (Link to this contribution) I support this probing amendment. It is interesting that, historically, 16 to 18 year-olds in youth ...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 692 c1648 (Link to this contribution) The Not-Contents have it. Clause 31 negatived. Clause 32 [Escort arrangements]:

Subjects

Children

Offenders

Mentally disordered offenders

Prisons

Probation

Rehabilitation

Young offenders

Prison visitors

Legislation

Offender Management Bill 2006-07

Link

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