UK Parliament / Open data

Armed Conflict (Parliamentary Approval)

Opposition day on Tuesday, 15 May 2007, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hague of Richmond. The answering member was Jack Straw.
Armed conflict (Parliamentary approval). Eleventh opposition day debate. Motion negatived on division (217 to 318). Amendment agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
460 c481-582 
Session
2006-07
Department
Leader of the House of Commons
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
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Proceeding contributions
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House supports the principle that parliamentary approval should be required...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) I was absolutely right to say that the intervention would not be relevant. I will go on to explain h...

Show all contributions (154)
Denis MacShane | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman take this occasion to apologise for the failure of the previous Govern...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not remotely think that that is a major difference between the motion and the amendment. [I...
Bob Blizzard | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) Is not one important difference between the motion and the amendment the fact that concern is expres...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c482-3 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is introducing a particular instance into the general argument; I h...
Marquess of Lothian | 460 c482 (Link to this contribution) May I say how strongly I endorse my right hon. Friend’s comments, which reflect what has been said b...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c486 (Link to this contribution) There are various ways of dealing with the problem that the hon. Gentleman describes. The favoured o...
Bernard Jenkin | 460 c486 (Link to this contribution) May I commend to my right hon. Friend the speech by my noble Friend Lord Norton of Louth in response...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c484 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree with my hon. Friend about that. He need not be worried about the motion as it stands...
Nick Palmer | 460 c484 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being extremely generous. He has str...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) I tend to agree that we need some kind of convention, as advocated by the House of Lords Constitutio...
Chris Bryant | 460 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that there should be full parliamentary scrutiny. However, one of the issues that concerns...
John Redwood | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend think that the right time to hold the vote is just before a significant nu...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) Well, I will come on to that point eventually. But now I give way to my right hon. Friend the Member...
Nicholas Winterton | 460 c484 (Link to this contribution) I agree with everything that my right hon. Friend has said so far. Does he accept that if the securi...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c484 (Link to this contribution) Again, the conclusion that we come to on such matters must be the result of consultation between the...
Jack Straw | 460 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to make a little more progress, I will give way to him sho...
John Redwood | 460 c495 (Link to this contribution) I quite understand the concern about committing troops on the ground, but what procedures should the...
Jack Straw | 460 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks said that the matter we are discussing is not simple, and ...
Peter Tapsell | 460 c496 (Link to this contribution) At the very end of the 1951 general election, the Daily Mirror carried the sensational headline, ““W...
Jack Straw | 460 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) As I remember, that was a question about which party should be elected—[Interruption.] The issue is ...
Mark Pritchard | 460 c496 (Link to this contribution) If there is a general election post deployment, how does the Leader of the House envisage that new M...
Jack Straw | 460 c496 (Link to this contribution) Again, it depends. In principle, this House cannot bind its successor and that has to be the case, b...
Edward Leigh | 460 c496 (Link to this contribution) What if circumstances change? Given that the justification for that war—that there were weapons of m...
Jack Straw | 460 c496 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that the justification is completely different. Of course I am aware, as all of us a...
Jack Straw | 460 c498 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman has military experience and I say to him that this is a difficult iss...
Nick Palmer | 460 c498 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that although it is likely to increase troop morale if there is soli...
Jack Straw | 460 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment. I need to make some progress, as I hav...
Patrick Mercer | 460 c498 (Link to this contribution) The point that gives me difficulty is the use of the word ““substantial””. In our current experience...
Jack Straw | 460 c500 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I remember that for a short while there was a Conservative MP who used to be called ““t...
Jack Straw | 460 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) For very good reasons, neither I nor my noble Friend the Attorney-General favours having the advice ...
Keith Simpson | 460 c500 (Link to this contribution) It is pronounced ““Lowth””, not ““Looth””.
Jack Straw | 460 c498 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. The House should return to the issue in the sense that regu...
Jack Straw | 460 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, To leave out from ““House”” to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:"“...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c493 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman with total approval so far. It is obvious that his past ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) It would entirely depend on the speed of the action taken. My point was that where, according to the...
Jack Straw | 460 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) No, it is not coincidence; and I think we have taken rather longer than St Paul. We said in response...
Jack Straw | 460 c494 (Link to this contribution) The Lord moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform. If I were the right hon. Gentleman I shou...
Jack Straw | 460 c494 (Link to this contribution) Of course I give way to the right hon. Gentleman. I hope that there has been another Pauline convers...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c494 (Link to this contribution) As I pointed out and as the Leader of the House has pointed out, the Opposition motion and the Gover...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c516 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is making a powerful case, and I fully support what he says. I was ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c514-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree that that danger must be avoided in the drafting of a statute. A hugely complex, detailed an...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c514 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is correct in saying that other countries have found it possible to...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c512-4 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, the Prime Minister and the Government were persuaded that they had to move to a substanti...
Nick Palmer | 460 c512 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is entirely correct to say that the Iraq war...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) I have debated many times over the years with the right hon. Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr....
Michael Meacher | 460 c509-11 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me of a fact about which I have been asked on every pl...
Paddy Tipping | 460 c509 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could remind the House that my right hon. Friend was then a member of the Government and d...
Michael Meacher | 460 c509 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that the House agreed that we would ““effectively go to war””. I do not beli...
James Gray | 460 c509 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right that, had the vote in March 2003 been the only one, it would have ...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c524 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is making a powerful argument. The vote on the 18 March motion was ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c521-3 (Link to this contribution) On the face of it, the debate is about parliamentary approval for this country to go to war, but it ...
Diane Abbott | 460 c519-21 (Link to this contribution) This debate is on the principle of parliamentary approval for armed conflict. It is an important deb...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c523-4 (Link to this contribution) I broadly agree. It is hugely important that we do not get so involved in our debates in this Chambe...
Nick Palmer | 460 c523 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that that is also an argument against requiring legi...
Jack Straw | 460 c517 (Link to this contribution) I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman took a different view on the merits of the Iraq war...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, but I must conclude. My main concern is of course to improve parliamentary control, an...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) I wholly agree. In terms of both Iraq and Afghanistan, we are currently unclear about what the Gover...
Jack Straw | 460 c501-3 (Link to this contribution) This is not the occasion to rehearse all that, but no one sought to mislead the House, or to act in ...
Jack Straw | 460 c501 (Link to this contribution) I accept that. Some of us were in the Chamber on 3 April 1982 for a short debate on a motion for the...
Bernard Jenkin | 460 c501 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. The advantage of a non-substantive motion is that it...
Jack Straw | 460 c500 (Link to this contribution) First, those judgments have to be made in the circumstances of the time. I am not trying to dodge th...
John Baron | 460 c500 (Link to this contribution) The Leader of the House is having difficulty answering the central question of when a vote would be ...
Jack Straw | 460 c501 (Link to this contribution) I have quoted the hon. Gentleman a couple of times, so I shall give way to him.
Jack Straw | 460 c501 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. It seems as though the recommendations of the Modernisation Committee are moving in that dir...
Nicholas Winterton | 460 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) Does the Leader of the House, who chairs the Modernisation Committee on which I sit, accept that we ...
Nick Palmer | 460 c508 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in practice, if Parliament really had substantial disagreement...
Michael Meacher | 460 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) There are two reasons why I enter into this debate. First, we are discussing a hugely important cons...
Michael Meacher | 460 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand that point. In practice, that may well be the case. It is extremely difficult to envisa...
Michael Moore | 460 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) This is an important debate, as illustrated by the quality of the opening speech from the Opposition...
Michael Moore | 460 c504 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Nick Palmer | 460 c504 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Michael Moore | 460 c504-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can get away with that. The Leader of the House, in his usual...
Nick Palmer | 460 c504 (Link to this contribution) If the Leader of the House had spelled that out, would not the hon. Gentleman be criticising him for...
Michael Moore | 460 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman makes an important point. I am happy to agree with it, and I am...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c506 (Link to this contribution) I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House accept that there will be circumstances in whic...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c538 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a relevant point. We can argue until the cows come home about whether we sh...
Nick Palmer | 460 c538 (Link to this contribution) Today’s debate is healthy in itself, regardless of Iraq. As I have argued, Iraq is an example of a c...
Neil Gerrard | 460 c538 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that Iraq is the example of a war where intelligence, or decisions about ...
Nick Palmer | 460 c538 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point, which I had not altogether considered. He is right that the intel...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c537 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady may have said that that was the spirit of what was voted on, but if the hon. Gentleman...
Nick Palmer | 460 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get too deeply into debate with the hon. Gentleman about the precise wording of pre...
Nick Palmer | 460 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) We should not underestimate the hesitation that any political party would feel about bringing forwar...
Mark Durkan | 460 c536 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend emphasises the importance of people in this House not wishing to demoralise those who...
Nick Palmer | 460 c536 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am glad that he picked up on my word ““routine””. That is the poi...
Nick Harvey | 460 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) Surely the hon. Gentleman cannot logically say that it is for Parliament to take a view at the outse...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c525 (Link to this contribution) I agree, but my main concern is the impact on our forces in a theatre of war. It is hugely important...
Neil Gerrard | 460 c525-6 (Link to this contribution) Normally, when I attend debates and hear agreement between Ministers and Opposition Front Benchers I...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c524 (Link to this contribution) I do not doubt for a moment what the hon. Lady says, but it is not a question simply of what Members...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c524 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to my right hon. and learned Friend’s criticism of the motion, but I am not quite su...
James Gray | 460 c526 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman used an interesting word. He correctly said that the three votes ““legitimised”” ...
Neil Gerrard | 460 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that we are getting into a slightly arcane legal point. Obviously I accept that if it were l...
Diane Abbott | 460 c524 (Link to this contribution) In fact, I was in the House for the debate on 18 March. Whatever the words on the Order Paper, there...
Malcolm Rifkind | 460 c524 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct; the motion was meant as political justification for the war. It even refe...
Neil Gerrard | 460 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. That is obviously one possible mechanism. In terms ...
Nick Palmer | 460 c530 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Douglas Carswell | 460 c531 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that scaling back the Crown prerogative by ensuring that parliamentary app...
Edward Leigh | 460 c531-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course I agree with that. To turn briefly to the subject of Afghanistan, apparently everybody ass...
Nick Palmer | 460 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) In response to the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), I do not think that the debate has a gr...
Nick Palmer | 460 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a genuine difficulty? We have discussed the problems with ha...
Mark Durkan | 460 c528 (Link to this contribution) Should not the rights and responsibilities of Parliament extend not just to the resolution to deploy...
Neil Gerrard | 460 c528 (Link to this contribution) I accept that point. There are genuine difficulties about the timing. If we look not just at the Ira...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c486 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that things could change if we have a reform of the upper House, whi...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c486-8 (Link to this contribution) Although my right hon. and learned Friend and I usually agree automatically on these issues, all I c...
Patrick Mercer | 460 c488 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend help me to define ““substantial””? Does it refer to firepower, manpower or...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) As I have said to other hon. Friends who have intervened, it is not possible to set out a precise nu...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c486 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Our noble Friend Lord Norton of Louth—I was going to refer to him later—mad...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 460 c489 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend, who has been extremely generous in giving way this after...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c489 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very important point, although I would say that parliamentary approval was no...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c489 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way, but for the last time, as other hon. Members want to speak.
Sammy Wilson | 460 c558-9 (Link to this contribution) I accept the hon. Gentleman’s interpretation. However, that is not the universal view of those who h...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c559-61 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to participate in this historic occasion. We are seeing the genesis of a major chan...
Jim Devine | 460 c561 (Link to this contribution) Napoleon once said that soldiers can do a great deal with bayonets by setting them. Does the hon. Ge...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c561-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, which is the main thrust of my speech. If he waits a moment,...
Andrew Mackinlay | 460 c564-7 (Link to this contribution) I very much welcome the debate. I have had a similar experience to that of my hon. Friend the Member...
Richard Shepherd | 460 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) I can think of no greater and more important decision for the national interest than to go to war. I...
Tony Wright | 460 c554-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise again to the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for being unable to be here for the opening exch...
Sammy Wilson | 460 c556-8 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) commented that he was happy to hear al...
Liam Fox | 460 c558 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point that has been raised several times during the debate. We...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 460 c577 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not paying attention to the earlier part of my speech. I explained wh...
Speaker | 460 c578 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps there is too much conversation in the Chamber.
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 460 c573-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) that this has been an exceptionally good debat...
Gerald Howarth | 460 c576 (Link to this contribution) Why did the Secretary of State change his mind and come round to this view?
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 460 c578 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea used the example of the Iraqi no-fly zo...
Lord McLoughlin | 460 c578 (Link to this contribution) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put. Question, That the Question be...
Liam Fox | 460 c569-73 (Link to this contribution) I am in a kind and gentle mood, so my hon. Friend should not tempt me to go further. It was amazing,...
Richard Shepherd | 460 c568 (Link to this contribution) I do not have time. Will the hon. Gentleman forgive me, please? Who gives assent in such circumstan...
Liam Fox | 460 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been an extremely good debate, throughout which the House has been seen at its most thought...
Speaker | 460 c578 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Nick Palmer | 460 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) There was obviously a problem with gathering intelligence. There is a general problem of having suff...
Liam Fox | 460 c538 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s excellent speech. Before he finishes considering intelligenc...
James Gray | 460 c552-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s suggestion is sensible. It might be possible for us to set up some such structu...
Andrew Mackinlay | 460 c552 (Link to this contribution) Why does the hon. Gentleman have such low ambitions for this place? We could have a committee appoin...
James Gray | 460 c549-51 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) always speaks an enormous amount of good sense o...
Peter Atkinson | 460 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall wait to have my facts corrected, but I was trying to give an example of circumstances in whi...
Andrew Mackinlay | 460 c548 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s recollection of the history is not quite sound. I hope to refer later to the pr...
Robert Walter | 460 c542-6 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on bringing this subject before the House today. I am ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 460 c539-42 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to take a small part in the debate, which has been interesting. Consensus in the Chambe...
Speaker | 460 c481 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.
Lord Hague of Richmond | 460 c483 (Link to this contribution) Talking of points that are not likely to be relevant, I give way to the right hon. Gentleman.
Elfyn Llwyd | 460 c499 (Link to this contribution) The Leader of the House might recall that in March 2004 we had a lengthy debate, which I opened, on ...
Diane Abbott | 460 c527 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that timing is vital for two reasons? When the House is asked to vote on m...
Edward Leigh | 460 c529-30 (Link to this contribution) Supply days usually make very little difference, and I often wonder why we are always on a three-lin...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 460 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with that analysis of events at all. The whole point about the invasion of Iraq is th...
Tobias Ellwood | 460 c501 (Link to this contribution) If the House is to vote, we must have the right information. The right hon. Gentleman referred to th...
Neil Gerrard | 460 c527 (Link to this contribution) I accept both those arguments. The difficulty is how to get the timing right. If the timing of the v...
Edward Leigh | 460 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. The hon. Gentleman has made a lot of interventions and he will be able to make his s...
John Baron | 460 c489 (Link to this contribution) May I raise an additional factor: the importance of good intelligence? My right hon. Friend might ag...
Jim Dowd | 460 c568 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Peter Atkinson | 460 c546-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr. Walter), whose knowledge ...
Subjects
Accountability
Armed forces
Armed conflict
Parliamentary procedure
Parliamentary scrutiny
Ministers
Royal prerogative
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