Welfare Reform Bill

My Lords, I am intervening—as usual, you might think—for two reasons. First, on the previous occasion I sat down there and declared that I was standing shoulder to shoulder with my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, which indeed I was, and I was therefore part of the vote that has caused us to be having this debate this evening. I will say something about that in a moment. Secondly, when this got to the Commons, a person who I do not know, described as Mrs McGuire, who I take from the context is a Labour Member of Parliament, read out the list of Conservative former Cabinet Ministers who had voted, including my name, and went on to say: "““I do not think that any of these people were fully paid up members of the liberal tendency””.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/2/12; col. 926.]" If it were not for parliamentary privilege, I would sue her! I just wanted to get that off my chest. Coming back to the Commons debate that I have just read, I could make several comments about some of the lines of argument there. I could also make several comments about the extensive discussions that my noble friend and I have had about this with the Ministers, up to the level of Secretary of State, but I am not going to because it is not productive. The hour is late, I am tired of having been good all day, and I believe that the House wants to come to a conclusion. I should make clear that, just as I operated in cahoots with my noble and learned friend on that occasion, I have operated in cahoots with my noble friend Lord Boswell on this occasion. His was the second name on the earlier amendment, even though he was not able to be here, and I was pleased that he was willing to take the lead on this occasion. At the same time, however, I would like to thank the Minister, even though I did not agree with everything he said when he argued with me in private, for being very constructive about this, and not least for indicating that this amendment was one that he felt he could smile favourably on. Indeed, he has given us some help in making sure that it was absolutely right compared with our first draft. However, the key point that I want to make is that at the end of the day, this is our judgment call about the best way to keep this issue on the table for further discussion, with full and proper consultation, for the regulations that must follow. All I can do is give the House my best judgment on that judgment call: that to press the matter further—certainly in the terms of the original amendment, or indeed probably, I say to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, even in the terms of her more limited amendment—is almost certain simply to provoke the Commons to send it straight back again. This is not something that the Commons did not debate; it did debate it, however scrappily. It is not something that it did not have a vote on, and it was a pretty decisive vote. We need to recognise that. More importantly, I must say that from my discussions with the Ministers involved, I see absolutely no prospect that the Government will back off, and another round will therefore mean that this House will have to back off with nothing more to show for it, if we abide by the usual conventions. If the noble and learned Baroness wanted to press her amendment, I would obviously be pretty torn about what to do—it might be quite hard to vote against her. However, I am confident that she will not wish to press it, and that is a great relief to me. I am clear that in practical and realistic terms, my noble friend’s amendment is now the best way forward, and I hope that the House will endorse it. In saying that, and in conclusion, I would say that I have pressed my noble friend on the Front Bench to make absolutely clear, or as clear as he can, that this is not just going to be a set of regulations shoved in front of the House, with a yes or no answer at some point in a few months’ time. We need an assurance, a proper consultation. I have not sought to achieve this mechanistically by an amendment but by a proper consultation and a willingness to go back to a first draft of the regulations as a result of that consultation—something more elaborate and participative than we usually have with statutory instruments. That is important, and it would help me enormously if my noble friend could make it clear that that is the way he will proceed. Subject to that, I hope very much that the House will go along with my noble friend’s compromise amendment this evening.