Public Bodies Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No. 2)

The Justice Committee has taken a close interest in this matter, as it did when the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) was a member; he contributed extensively to our work on it. We have been considering it lately but are yet to take a formal view on whether the Youth Justice Board needs to survive. However, we have explored thoroughly what needs to happen if it is abolished. The Youth Justice Board has done a lot of good work, not least in leading a reduction in the use of custody for young people. That led to the closure of a youth offenders institution in my constituency, but the places have of course been taken as a result of the prison system's other requirements. I want to make three points about what is essential in this field, whether the Youth Justice Board survives or not. First, the crucial element is that youth offending teams work at local level. The Youth Justice Board has given the initial leadership to develop youth offending teams, following initiatives taken by the right hon. Gentleman when he was a Minister. The ability of all relevant agencies at local level, including the police, social services, local authorities and housing authorities, to work together is crucial. Secondly, we must retain a degree of difference from how the National Offender Management Service has operated. The Committee has been pretty critical of NOMS—its life must surely be limited as a result of how the Ministry of Justice is organising things, but that is a matter for another day. What is quite clear is that the youth justice functions must not be subsumed into NOMS, which has not succeeded in carrying out any of the key objectives it was set on bringing together decisions about custody, and its alternatives, and the management of offenders when they leave custody. The Committee received assurances from the Minister that there will be an entirely separate division of roles and that no youth justice functions will be subsumed into NOMS. Thirdly, the Youth Justice Board, as an autonomous, arms-length body, is in a position to share its views and advice publicly, and that is a crucial feature that we must not lose. It is of course accountable to Ministers as its chair, as she pointed out herself, is appointed by Ministers. If the board was not pursuing the Minister's objectives, its membership might not necessarily last very long, but its ability to advise independently is important. We pressed the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) on that matter, and he showed an unusual and commendable willingness to recognise the value of making the advice that would be given by the advisory board that will be created publicly available and bringing it before Parliament, and the Committee could, for example, question the advisory board on its work. What we must not have are assertions that that advice is for Ministers and, therefore, must be kept in confidence. That would not be an acceptable situation. I do not think that that is what the Minister envisages, but he must realise that that is what will happen if we do not build in such protections from the start. The civil service machine closes in around advice to Ministers, and we cannot have that. There are perfectly good arguments for saying that we should continue to have an arms-length Youth Justice Board. It is possible to carry out the functions of the Youth Justice Board effectively under different arrangements, but there are certain essentials, three of which I have sought to identify: the local role of youth offending teams; the importance of not allowing the role to be sucked into NOMS; and the importance of knowing what kind of independent advice Ministers are given. Those are the things the Justice Committee cares about, and I want to be satisfied that the Minister cares about them too.