Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

My Lords, I have to remain illogical to the noble Lord. I can think of nothing else to say to him now that we have not already taken around this circuit, not just in today’s debate but in Committee. I wonder whether I might start to address some of the amendments that have been raised in this debate, beginning with the veto in Amendment 179 tabled by my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lord Shipley. I am sure it will come as no surprise to them when I say that I cannot accept it, probably for the most of the reasons that have been exchanged not with them but across the Floor of the House in the past 10 minutes. I can also not accept Amendment 178, tabled by my noble friend Lady Doocey. The amendment would give the London Assembly the power to reject the MOPC’s draft plan by a two-thirds majority and have the Assembly’s comments reflected in the plan. Amendments 39, 168, 173, 175, 176 and 177 are consequential to my noble friend’s amendment and can be considered with it. The House will be aware that the Government have made a concession in relation to police and crime panel vetoes. We listened to the concerns of the House and have introduced amendments creating a new power of veto for the London Assembly police and crime panel in relation to the appointment of a non-Assembly member as the deputy mayor for policing and crime. We are also reducing the majority required for all the various panel vetoes from three-quarters to two-thirds. I understand that that is not as low as noble Lords would have liked. Points have been raised again on Report, as they were in Committee. But it is a concession. It was at three-quarters, so we have listened by reducing it to two-thirds. Noble Lords have said that it would be quite hard to get two-thirds of people there if such a vote were to take place. I have to say that such is my experience of democracy that wherever you set the threshold you are often disappointed that people do not feel that it is as important a matter as you do for them to turn out and vote. The right of veto is in the Bill. If such a matter occurred and people on the panel felt it was very important, they would almost certainly try to make the case to ensure that their points of view were known to those who were eligible to use the veto. However, I am clear that setting the strategy for the force must be an unfettered decision for the PCC or the MOPC. This is precisely where its electoral mandate will come into play and where the public will most visibly see their views and opinions reflected. I realise that that is not the view of all your Lordships in the Chamber tonight, but it would be against the spirit of our reforms to allow that electoral mandate to be overridden by the panel. There is provision in the Bill for the panel to provide recommendations on the plan. It is a robust, transparent mechanism that ensures that views are heard and debated. However, the final decision on the plan must rest with the PCC or, in the case of London, the MOPC, and not the panel. For those reasons, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn. Amendments 166 and 167, again from my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lord Shipley, would allow the London Assembly to choose whether its functions in relation to the scrutiny of the MOPC should be discharged by the Assembly as a whole or by a committee—the police and crime panel. We have been clear that having a dedicated police and crime panel perform these functions will ensure that sufficient attention and scrutiny can be given to policing and crime matters. It would also allow for independent members to be brought into the panel to ensure diversity and the right mix of skills. The Government have tabled Amendment 172 to make that clear, having listened very carefully to representations that were made at discussions outside the Chamber and also in the Chamber in Committee. This smaller group will be able to focus its attentions on the important business of scrutinising in detail the actions and decisions of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, particularly in respect of the police and crime plan. In addition to the provisions in the Bill, I would highlight that the government amendment in this group provides for the London Assembly to have an important and extensive say on the membership of its police and crime panel committee. I note that it is common for the London Assembly to operate in committees, one example being the transport committee. I hope that the Home Office has got that right. My noble friend Lady Doocey has also brought forward an amendment to allow the police and crime panel to require the attendance of senior police officers or police staff at the police and crime panel. Others have mentioned that. The House discussed this issue in Committee and I pointed out that panels are not charged with holding the police to account and, as such, there is no need for them to have this power. In London the panel is charged with holding the mayor to account and the only power that it needs or will have is to require the mayor and the staff of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime to attend. However, the Government agree that there may be occasions when the London Assembly may wish to invite the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to attend with the mayor or deputy mayor for policing and crime, and we have tabled an amendment to achieve this. The London Assembly already asks the commissioner to attend, which he does in the interest of good working relationships, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has already pointed out. We have no reason to believe that a compulsory power is required to secure the commissioner’s attendance and, as I have indicated, we do not believe that any such power in relation to other senior Metropolitan Police officers or staff would be appropriate. On that basis, I would ask my noble friend not to press the amendment. The House has been clear that checks and balances are needed and that this model must include non-executive members. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Doocey and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, for tabling an amendment in Committee and to my noble friends Lady Doocey and Lady Hamwee for tabling amendments on Report to ensure that the London Assembly’s police and crime panel explicitly has this power. We wholeheartedly agree and want to ensure that the ability to co-opt independent members to the panel applies equally to London as to the rest of England and Wales. I hope, therefore, that there will be support for this amendment in making it clear that the panel can co-opt independent members—that is, people who are not members of the Assembly itself. As with other police and crime panels, this will help the panel meet its obligation to have balanced geographical and political representation. It will also allow the panel to bring in valuable technical expertise if it is decided that that is needed. I beg to move the amendment and hope that my noble friend will withdraw her amendment and support the government one.