Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group and I shall give the numbers as I come to them. The noble Lord has, for the first time in our proceedings, raised the subject of the level of veto that should apply, reducing it from three-quarters to two-thirds. Depending on the size of the panel, that would make a difference of only one or two members—none the less, a significant difference. The normal world—perhaps I should not suggest that we are not operating with a degree of normality—would consider a decision taken by 50 per cent plus one to be adequate. I was a member of the London Assembly, which had the power, if two-thirds of us agreed, to block the mayor’s budget. I remember when the previous mayor, sitting in the public gallery, listened to the Assembly debate his budget. It was rejected by the Assembly but not quite by two-thirds and, from the public gallery, he shouted out ““Agreed””. I think that at least one other Member of your Lordships’ House was there and there is another Member who may not be surprised at what happened on that occasion. It is very counterintuitive to have a veto applied by such a high proportion of the membership. My Amendment 84 deals with information to be provided to the public under Clause 11 and suggests that not only should that be specified by the Secretary of State but that it is thought ““necessary”” by the police and crime panel. I do not know how one challenges the ““necessary”” or what is more generalised. I am suggesting widening it to, "““or required by the relevant … panel””." Amendment 85 deals with what is necessary or required to assess the ““performance””. I am deliberately dealing with these amendments quite fast. This amendment suggests that the, "““treatment of victims of crime””," should be one of the factors assessed within ““performance””. Amendment 86 is about the contents of the annual report, and I have based this on the arrangements within the Greater London Authority, applying to the mayor, that the annual report should include information which the relevant police and crime panel has notified the police and crime commissioner that it wishes to see included. This will not necessarily be contentious but it is part of the scrutiny process and part of the check on the commissioner. Amendment 88 would allow the police and crime commissioner to provide the panel with the information that it requests. Amendment 87 would limit the information that would be withheld on grounds of security and confidentiality by suggesting that it could be provided in an alternative form. Only if it could not be provided in an alternative form would it be limited. I have a number of amendments to Clause 29 about requiring both the attendance of individuals at meetings of the panel and information. For the panel to do its job it is essential that it has the tools, and many of the tools are information. Some of that is best obtained by asking questions but sometimes one needs to have people at meetings to question them and to follow a line of questioning in public. I can anticipate that the Government might say that panel meetings should not be turned into some sort of circus, but occasionally that might happen because of the subject matter. Sometimes you find that a meeting has an item on the agenda that has become extremely topical, and people pour in and the press and media crowd round. I am not suggesting putting officers on trial in proposing that they could be required to attend meetings, but they may have information that is essential to the panel doing the job. Holding the commissioner to account, most of all, means getting information into the public domain, and to do that, requiring the attendance of relevant chief constables, senior officers and anyone to whom the police and crime commissioner has delegated functions. These are Amendments 140 to 141, and 142 to 145, which also refer to the production of relevant documents. You cannot hold the commissioner to account without getting information on some occasions from others who are part of the wider story. I do not want to equate the operation of the panel to a court of law, but I do not think any court or a Select Committee of Parliament would say that the only evidence necessary will be what is produced from one side. My amendments would require senior officers to attend, as in the London context, in Amendment 166; and Amendment 165, tabled by my noble friend Lady Doocey, is in the same vein. Amendment 168 would require the panel to be consulted on the commissioner’s arrangements for local engagement. This is a rather different flavour, but it is important that those who are elected locally across the force area and who know their own patches are consulted on these arrangements. It would be nonsense for them not to be, but then sometimes nonsense happens. Amendment 169, to Clause 36, deals with reports from the chief officer and the panel should have a copy of these. Amendment 232 deals again with collaboration agreements under Schedule 12 and decisions about efficiency and effectiveness. Again, surely the views of the panel should count for something. Indeed, they should be sought. If we are to have panels, we need strong ones and should use them to the best effect. On Amendment 123C, I offer congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I was struggling with how to deal with a call-in right and could not see where it could be called in to. I am glad to support his amendment because it deals with it very neatly.