Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

My Lords, that will be helpful. I would merely add that I have always had a bit of a concern about responses being dealt with by letter because they would not be in Hansard and easily accessible by those who may seek to look for them. In fact, this is a matter on which the Leader’s Group on the working practices of the House of Lords has made some suggestions. To turn to the issue of piloting, the very number and variations of proposals for amendments demonstrates the importance of the issue. Whatever model of governance we end up with, we all have a great concern that it should work well. After all, that is our role. Certainly, piloting is not equivalent to not taking the changes forward, which is why my amendment would provide for pilots for a two-year period. I see a lot of sense in a longer period but I did not want the suggestion that this was a matter of trying to undo the proposals to become mixed up with the issue of piloting. Piloting is hardly a new concept. It is what the outside world regards as sensible, about which a lot of people, having become aware of this issue over the past couple of months, have commented on to me. The Government do it as well. Last week, the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee had a statutory instrument on dentistry which was taking forward the piloting of new arrangements. It is not simply directed at a yes or no answer to the proposition but tests all the aspects of that proposition, including—I come to them again—the checks and balances, which, if they are too limited, will be insufficient. Checks and balances have to be sound in themselves individually, and extensive. Otherwise, they will be ineffective because ways around them will be found. I have always thought that it was necessary to look at checks and balances in the round. There may be different views of the role of scrutiny; that is, the role of the panels here. The tagline of the Centre for Public Scrutiny—I am a member of its advisory board—is, ““Good Government Needs Good Scrutiny””. It should not be in arrear or by way of commentary. If it is oppositional, it should be active, constructive, collaborative and preferably consensual, thus providing a reality check. This is not just the role of the police and crime panel. Another major area of concern expressed by your Lordships is the boundary of responsibility and function between police and crime commissioners and chief constables. We have a protocol in draft form. We debate the term ““operational””. Seeing how the model works and where the boundaries lie in practice would be more than useful: it is essential. The decisions that must be taken above the local level is an issue that was touched on at the last stage when the noble Lord, Lord Laming, raised child protection. Counterterrorism is an obvious issue, but child protection, trafficking and a number of other matters may have to be dealt with not just very locally but at levels above that. The NSPCC raised this with me and said that it would be happy for me to quote from its briefing. It says that child protection is a complex task, and that to be successful, "““it requires a combination of the highly visible elements of policing with the less visible elements such as engagement in multi-agency work and investigative work””." What is needed, says the NSPCC, "““may not be identified as a priority, as it is unlikely to be among the mainstream crime issues that are prioritised by the majority of people within local communities””." This is something we have also touched on. The NSPCC also said that, "““there has been limited opportunity to thoroughly test the practical implications and measure the impact of the Government’s proposals””." The NSPCC therefore recommends that these changes, "““are piloted and evaluated by the Home Office prior to national roll-out to ensure that relevant lessons can be learnt, especially, though not exclusively, for child protection””." My Amendment 247 is consequential on the main Amendment 26, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for adding their names to it, along with my noble friend Lord Shipley. I have suggested pilot areas designated by the Secretary of State—up to six areas, and that is because I realise there are huge variations in police areas: variations in geography, size, demography, the urban and rural mix and so on. I do not pretend to know which would be the best test for these. I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, is going to move his amendment to this amendment. He specified some particular areas; if he is moving it, he will justify his choice. I have explained the period of up to two years. There should be a report from the Secretary of State. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his amendment, suggests an independent report from the HMIC, and I think that that is a splendid idea. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw has a slightly different approach again, but we all share the view that there needs to be not just time for reflection but quite structured reflection before a full rollout, with a mechanism for altering the provisions. The Local Government Association has also supported the notion of piloting, which it says would result in ““tangible feedback.”” It says that it would be wise to gather further evidence and thus be able to gather a wider support from members of the police, public, councils and Parliament prior to implementation. I am not deaf: I heard the Government’s response to this amendment before it was even tabled, and I know that they are concerned about pilots. Therefore, perhaps my most important question to the Minister is whether, if piloting ceases to commend itself, the Government can find another way of testing, assessing and evaluating the model. London cannot be regarded as a pilot. We have had reference in the debate to the number of letters received by the mayor’s office when the current mayor took over responsibility for policing. However, London is not like the rest of the country, so I hope that that is not used as an argument against. I am sure the Minister will agree that we want evidence-based policy, not policy-based evidence. I beg to move.