Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

My noble friend moderated his own comment by saying ““to some extent””, having said ““very often”” at the beginning of his intervention. The fact is that it does not happen very often that independents are elected. If there were a clause in the Bill to say that only those who were not affiliated to a political party were eligible to stand, many of my objections would be answered. However, I am concerned. Because I know about Staffordshire, I would like to relate my remarks to my own county. In future, with Stoke included, it will be what is called a swing county; it will go Labour, then Conservative and then Labour again. This could have a very odd effect on the relationship between the commissioner and the chief constable. For four years you could have a Conservative commissioner. He appoints a chief constable. He begins an entirely proper but very constructive relationship for four years, and then he is out, replaced by someone from the other side who will not necessarily readily and immediately be able to establish a similar relationship. I may have been slightly rebuked for my interpretation of conventions, but I very much hold to the convention that this House has a duty to improve legislation, not to reject it, unless it affects the very future of Parliament itself. We may come to that at some stage. In this case I accept that the House of Commons has determined that there should be police commissioners. That is why I should not support the amendment of the noble Baroness exactly as it stands; I believe that the pilot scheme is a better way forward. This House fulfils its absolutely proper constitutional responsibilities by saying, ““All right. You have decreed this but we want to look at it carefully, and we do not want to rush into a series of elections that would cover every corner and part of the country””. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, talked of her experience in Northern Ireland. Not so long ago I talked to Sir Hugh Orde, who now has a different role. When he was in Northern Ireland, he welcomed having a police authority—under another name, I know—composed of people from all shades of political opinion and all communities. It would have been much more difficult to respond to a particular individual. This is why, in their wisdom, the different main parties in Northern Ireland have said that they have to stand back from appointing a Minister of Justice. They will have one from a minority party. It is a similar approach. I finish by saying that we have a Bill and we have a decision to make, but we also have a duty. That duty is to ensure that, as we move towards elected police commissioners, we do so properly, methodically, conscious of all the difficulties that have been referred to this afternoon, and by having pilot projects. I beg the House, as I did earlier, not to vote this afternoon, but rather to look at this matter again on Report when the new Minister has had chance to reflect and discuss with her ministerial colleagues. Perhaps we can then have a consensus. We may have to vote; who knows?