Public Bodies Bill [HL]

My Lords, that convinces me only that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, can resist anything except temptation. The noble Baroness gave some reasons why the Government should give themselves time to think on these matters. She pointed out that this is only enabling legislation, but, as I said in the previous debate, it is better that we have some clarity in what we wish to do. We are aware that the proposed changes to legal aid will put pressure on parts of this sector of justice, and that is why a concerted effort has to be made to drive up the quality of original decision-making. It is the departments and public bodies that make the original decisions that have the primary responsibility to ensure the quality of decision-making. However, this work with the decision-makers will continue, so as to improve getting it right first time. To drive up standards, we will seek to spread lessons learnt among relevant decision-making bodies. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, gave the game away when he said that the amendment and the consequential amendments were a perfectly legitimate and ingenious way of asking the House to reconsider a decision it had already made in Committee. However, the department has never hidden the fact that one of the reasons for the decision was saving money. However, as in the recent debates, almost throughout the Bill, opponents to what the Government propose seem to put enormous emphasis on the benefits that arm’s-length bodies can deliver and give no credit at all to the fact that one of the beauties of our system was that one check and balance on the delivery of policy was the direct line of responsibility running from Ministers in their departments through to the Floors of both Houses. We do not accept the idea that all these things have to be done by arm’s-length bodies, nor do I accept that the Ministry of Justice knows nothing and cares less about the wider issues of administrative justice. It is unfair to keep on throwing these attacks on civil servants who, in my experience, show an extraordinary commitment in their areas of expertise and are extremely willing to speak truth to power. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, is passionate about retaining independent oversight of the administrative justice system and that this has motivated this group of amendments. I recently met the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, and faithfully took back their messages to the Secretary of State for Justice. Although I acknowledge their experience and knowledge in this area, and I am also grateful for their recognition that the Government have to make tough decisions, their argument did not carry weight with the Secretary of State. I even gave the Secretary of State the advice of the noble and learned Lord that you abolish in haste and repent at leisure—advice that came from his experience with the Metrication Board in the early 1980s. It is probably no surprise that I have to tell noble Lords that the amendments do not fit with the Government’s decision to abolish the AJTC. I should, however, reiterate that our policy is the right one. The AJTC is relatively expensive for the job it does; the context in which it operates has changed enormously since the council and its predecessor, the Council on Tribunals, were founded; and this in turn makes the exercise of its functions outside central government unnecessary and, in fact, a duplication of efforts and resources. In the case of the Civil Justice Council, I have to say that it is a little odd in the context of this particular Bill that a non-government amendment is tabled to put a body back into the Bill, rather than to take it out. Although I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has done this, I do not agree that the Civil Justice Council should be in the Bill simply to preserve the functions of a body proposed for abolition. The Civil Justice Council was deemed to perform a function that should remain unchanged; the AJTC was not. I should like to respond first to Amendment 26. It would enable a merger of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council and the Civil Justice Council, and replace them with a new body, or abolish one body, with the remaining one taking some or all of the other’s functions. This amendment would not allow the Government to abolish the AJTC and to keep the Civil Justice Council as it is—which is our intention. A merger is not desirable. Putting civil justice and administrative justice together provides too wide a range for one body to cover, and the focus of each is different. Tribunals are distinctive in character from the courts, and we are keen to preserve that difference. There are not sufficient overlaps between the two areas to make the whole manageable. There are further difficulties—in particular, the difference in jurisdiction. The Civil Justice Council covers England and Wales, but the AJTC’s remit extends to Scotland. There are also differences between the ways in which the two bodies are set up. Appointed members of the AJTC are remunerated, whereas Civil Justice Council members are not. In addition, even if the policy was sound, the secretariat that supports the Civil Justice Council would not be in a position to take on additional work without an increase in resources. In addition, even if the increase were relatively modest, the resource could not be funded without jeopardising other areas of the ministry’s work. I turn now to the rationale for abolishing the AJTC. When we considered the reforms to arm’s-length bodies we looked at all relevant factors including value for money. The AJTC costs about £1.3 million a year. This may not seem a large sum in the context of the ministry's overall budget, but the Civil Justice Council’s budget is £312,000—for a body whose work directly supports the practical operation of the courts. I accept that the Civil Justice Council’s functions are similar to those of the AJTC. When we looked at functions, we looked not only at statutory functions but at how the bodies worked in practice. Much of the Civil Justice Council’s work, such as the production of advice on the technical aspects of civil costs and policy, and pre-action protocols, directly supports the courts. As noted, the cost of the Civil Justice Council is extremely modest. It has unpaid members and little in the way of secretarial support compared with the AJTC. Taking this into account, as well as the technical emphasis of its work, we concluded that the Civil Justice Council should remain. The Government’s policy takes account also of the changes that have taken place since the AJTC was set up. The most significant is the establishment of the Unified Tribunals Service. We consider the AJTC to be no longer vital because the unified service provides a coherent system of tribunal’s administration and judiciary for the tribunals within it. For this reason, we do not need the AJTC’s tribunal’s oversight function. We should keep in mind that the AJTC is an advisory body; it is not an executive body, a regulator, a judicial body or a tribunal. Our policy is to reduce duplication of effort and resource, and I do not share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that we would be taking a retrograde step if we were to abolish the AJTC. I have faith that the Ministry of Justice can work effectively with other government departments, and with other administrations and bodies outside the remit of the Tribunals Service, to ensure oversight and to develop a coherent policy on administrative justice. I appreciate the concerns of the noble Lord about the responsibility for administrative justice policy being spread across several government departments. However, the Ministry of Justice is committed to enhancing its role in wider administrative justice issues and will work closely with the AJTC while it still exists, and with other government departments that have an interest in this area such as the Cabinet Office, which leads on ombudsman policy. The Government resist Amendment 26, which would merge the two bodies. Amendments 30, 32, 37, 45 and 47 would allow orders to be brought forward to modify the constitutions, funding or functions of the AJTC and the Civil Justice Council. The Government oppose these amendments for the same reason. There is not sufficient reason for us to depart from our original view, endorsed by the House in Committee, that the AJTC should be abolished. It should also not be merged with a body that we wish to retain in its current form. I hope that, in the light of these explanations, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.