Public Bodies Bill [HL]

My Lords, this debate relates to the order-making power given to Ministers in relation to the constitutional arrangements of the bodies listed in Schedule 3. I am concerned that very considerable power is given to Ministers in this Bill, and this is an example of that. Perhaps I may reiterate a point that I made when we started scrutinising this Bill some few weeks ago: we have no objection in principle to a proper review of the public bodies contained in the Bill and to their abolition if they have reached the end of their useful life. Nor do I doubt the need for such bodies to be appropriately accountable to Ministers. However, there also has to be some distance and independence. There is clearly no point in having a public if it does not feel that it has independence. That is why I am worried about the effect of the power in Clause 3. It has the potential for a chilling impact on the behaviour of boards. If boards are aware that, on a whim, a minister can get rid of the chair and members through an order-making power, that would have an undue influence on their behaviour. We will come later to a similar amendment to Schedule 4 in relation to the financial arrangements. One would be more reassured if the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, were able to give some comfort about the general architecture of the Bill. I refer him to two points. First, it will be interesting at some stage to have the Government’s view on what have come to be known as sunset clauses. In other words, if this provision related to an individual body for a limited length of time and then ceased to apply to that body, I would be much more relaxed about the provisions. Equally, we will debate on Wednesday the issue of another order-making power. The noble Lord will have seen the latest report of the appropriate Select Committee in relation to his amendments, but at this stage I would like to give him an opportunity to explain why this schedule is in the Bill. He will understand that my attitude towards it will be shaped by the eventual architecture of the rest of the Bill.