Equality Bill

My Lords, I oppose the amendment, which I regard more as a probing amendment at this stage, and support the review. While I would not wish to appear reactionary, I wish to comment on the practical difficulties that should be firmly considered in the review. I recall debates on these issues in the early 1980s. I remember in the House of Commons that, repeatedly over a number of years, many speeches were made by Labour Members and others asking for early mandatory retirement as a way of resolving problems in the jobs market. Indeed, I remember that at that time the Conservative Government introduced the job release scheme. Its objectives were—if my recollection is correct—to take older people out of the jobs market and replace them with younger people. A Department of Employment survey at that time showed that only a quarter of the jobs released under the JRS went to young people. Three-quarters of them went to workers in the middle range of age in conditions of high unemployment, particularly in the industrial regions of the United Kingdom. My former constituency, Workington, was an industrial seat. The attitude of industry was therefore very important in the consideration that I made at the time about the extent to which it ought to be taken into account. Secondly, before going into Parliament in the 1970s, I built up, ran and subsequently sold out a manufacturing company. I remember my own experience at the time in this area with a couple of employees; we are going back over 30 years. I am not completely opposed to the idea of removal. However, I hope that the review considers fully where in the jobs market a greater flexibility might be more suitable. I notice that the brief sent by Age Concern claims that: ""Business leaders sometimes claim that it is impossible to carry out succession planning without using a mandatory retirement age"," but it goes on to talk about the United States, Australia and Canada. It says: ""In the UK, many large business groups (including several members of the CBI) operate without recourse to a mandatory retirement age, including the following members of the Employers Forum on Age"." It goes on to list Asda Stores, Nationwide Building Society, B&Q, Centrica, Barclays plc, Marks & Spencer, Sainsbury’s plc, the Co-operative Group, JD Wetherspoon and BT. What struck me about that list is that they are primarily high street names. I accept that there are certain parts of economic activity in the United Kingdom where the mandatory retirement age is not relevant and where it may well be that employees over the age of 65 can work quite safely in conditions where they can manage the strain or the taxing nature of employment—but what about shipbuilding? What about construction, the steel industry and heavy engineering? What about areas of maintenance or widespread areas of British manufacturing industry? What about vehicle manufacturing? I would argue that when people are over the age of 65, working has all kinds of implications for health. When the review takes place, it might be that in certain sections of industry it could be considered impractical to give people the right to say, "I wish to stay", and stay. There are existing appeal procedures whereby you go to your employer at the age of 65—I would apply this to those sections of industry—and say, "I would like to keep my job. Will you consider me? I am still capable of working in that particular sector". The issue of capability is critical here. In those circumstances they should stay, but employers in parts of heavy manufacturing and certain other areas of industry should not be required to retain labour in the event that they feel that it is not in their interests to do so. There are legal implications. If people say, "I want to work" but the employer then appeals because they still have a right to dismiss, the employer might find themselves in a difficult position legally and find it difficult to afford legal action so might, in those circumstances, simply concede and be required to hold that labour. I am also worried, as I say, about the question of job-blocking for young people. In the debates that took place in the 1980s, it was argued all the time that retaining labour over a certain age meant that young people were not given opportunities in the labour market. That must inevitably be the case. Whereas then they were arguing that job-blocking was a problem, today we are arguing that job-blocking is not a problem, although the evidence must essentially be the same. Will that be considered in the review? Finally, why 65? I understand that with the raising of the pension age an argument might arise, but why 65 and not 66 or 67? Is there some other consideration in mind that prevents us moving at this stage, perhaps as a proposal from the review, to lift the age by a year or two? We should not leave it open-ended, whereby industry, and the sectors that I have referred to in particular, is required to hold labour which it feels in the circumstances unable to do.