Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, I commend the noble Baroness on the view she has taken on not pursuing the amendments in relation to the forum because she is quite right that these issues have been settled. Indeed, we remember only too well the forceful intervention made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, who, having had the advantage of looking at the explanation given by the Government, was kind enough to say in response to my arguments as set out in my letter that: ""The question as to whether to prosecute must be for the prosecuting authorities and it follows that the question of where to prosecute must also be for them. Where there are two competing jurisdictions, it can only be resolved by agreement between the prosecuting authorities in the two different countries. I cannot see how it could conceivably be resolved by a judge in this country".—[Official Report, 20/10/09; col. 603.]" So I commend the noble Baroness on her approach to this matter. Perhaps I may respectfully say to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that he is wrong to continue to assert that the procedure in our courts is just a rubber stamp. While the court certainly has the warrant before it, it is not the case that the courts here simply rubber stamp that warrant. The court would have to be satisfied that all of the information is such as to provide reasonable grounds for suspicion. So the information to which I referred and that to which my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith referred is provided not only to the Secretary of State but also to the judge so as to enable him to make his assessment. I hope that I have been able to reassure him that this is not something that is somehow restricted in the nature of information. Perhaps I may also remind him of what I said three years ago in this House in relation to forum provisions in the Police and Justice Act 2006. I shall quote from Hansard: ""At this point I wish to say a few words about the government amendments passed by another place. We have tabled these purely out of procedural necessity to enable the matter to return to this House. They do not alter the Government’s position one iota. We cannot and do not agree with the amendments tabled by the Opposition and passed by this House in July".—[Official Report, 7/11/06; col. 650.]" I hope that I set out fully the Government’s position in relation to the forum in my letter of 19 October, but in view of the discussion we have now had, perhaps I should briefly outline some of the salient points. I have to tell the noble Lord that I have not had the advantage of reading the Liberty briefing and I tremble to tell him that I do not have the tome by my bedside at night. I daresay that if I wish to sleep a little more easily, I should buy one immediately. My first objection to the introduction of the forum bar to extradition is that, in the light of the terms of the Extradition Act 2003, such a bar is unnecessary. That is because our extradition legislation already makes it absolutely plain that in any case where someone is being prosecuted in the United Kingdom, these domestic proceedings must always take precedence over extradition, as has already been alluded to by my noble friend. In any case, where independent prosecuting agencies decide to bring a case against someone in the United Kingdom, the domestic prosecution operates to bring an immediate and automatic halt to extradition proceedings. In view of the fact that the Extradition Act 2003 makes it so clear that domestic criminal proceedings will always take precedence over extradition, the only circumstance in which the proposed forum bar would come into play would be in a case where no UK proceedings had been commenced. In practice, this would mean that in many cases the judge in extradition proceedings would be asked to second guess a decision as to prosecution made by UK prosecutors. This is unnecessary and has potentially dangerous consequences. Not only would this approach sit uncomfortably with the traditional roles of prosecutors and the judiciary, it would mean asking judges who are not familiar with making prosecutorial decisions to take account of the large volume of evidence routinely considered by prosecutors. It would also mean that judges would need to consider practical issues bearing on prosecutions, such as witness availability, not only in the United Kingdom but also in the state requesting extradition. Where prosecutors have decided that a case should be tried in country A rather than in country B or C, it is not proper for a judge to second guess that decision. In Committee we referred to the multinational cases that we now have to deal with together, where not only one or two countries make the decision but where perhaps 10 different countries may be engaged in one case. It has to be a decision between the prosecutors as to which part could most conveniently be prosecuted in which jurisdiction—sometimes it has to be done sequentially—and it would be impossible to get the necessary degree of acuity and precision if we are going to interdict the international and global nature of the criminal activities of some of the new criminal families, who are as large, if not larger, than some multinationals. If we are going to give them a run for their money, prosecutors will have to be fleet of foot and work together in union to make sure that they prosecute that which should be prosecuted. One example of this kind of co-operation can be found in the protocol for handling criminal cases with concurrent jurisdiction agreed between the Attorneys-General of the United Kingdom and the US in January 2007, in which my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith participated. I hope the noble Lord will concede that his amendment is misconceived. Time has moved on. The unity of purpose between prosecutors globally is an essential part of our attempt to interdict the new form of crime. To reintroduce forum in a way that would disable us from doing that job as effectively, as efficiently and now as successfully as we have demonstrated it can be done would be a grave loss to the people of our country. I am confident that the noble Lord would not wish that to occur. I therefore invite him, after the joy of the further discussion we have now had, to withdraw his amendment.