Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith for his comments on the amendment. I assure him that he is absolutely right and nothing has changed. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that when I was Minister of State at the Home Office and responded on these issues, I did so before the treaty was ratified and before we had an opportunity to look at the practice as opposed to the form. My noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, the then Attorney-General, as he described, made an inquiry as to what in fact was the position in relation to the two countries. There is a difference between form and fact. I hope that I have made it clear in my most recent letters that what my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith describes is exactly what happens now. The information before the United States court demonstrating probable cause does not need to be in an evidential format. In both cases—extradition from the UK to the US and vice versa—the courts consider the relevant domestic test. The text of Article 8 of the treaty makes this clear. In answer to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, about the clarity that she wishes for on information, Section 71(4) of the Extradition Act 2003 makes it clear that the information that must be provided by a designated judge in a category 2 territory must be sufficient for an arrest warrant to be issued in the judge’s jurisdiction. In other words, there must be reasonable suspicion, which is the domestic test for the issue of an arrest warrant. Information covers material that is not in an evidential format, for example hearsay evidence. Under the formal proceedings that we used to have, all statements had to be topped and tailed. Evidence now need not be produced in that way, but it must incorporate sufficient information to enable the judge to be satisfied on the issues. The parity of treatment that we have in practice is something that both the US and we are comfortable with, because the practitioners know that they are getting the same thing. I understand that the noble Baroness has had anxieties about that and that she seeks clarification. However, my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith is right when he says that if she does not wish to ask for prima facie evidence, the amendments do not do what she wishes; in fact, they ask for prima facie evidence. Part 2 territory really must provide evidence establishing a prima facie case—she asked me about the exception—unless that territory has been designated for the purpose of Section 84 or Section 86 of the 2003 Act. Members of the Council of Europe convention on extradition and other trusted extradition partners—the United States, Australia, Canada and New Zealand—have been designated as Part 2 territories for these purposes so they do not have to establish a prima facie case. My noble friend and learned friend Lord Goldsmith is right to say that those of us who have had the great privilege of being in this House for a tad longer than the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, have had the joy of discussing these issues since 2003, almost continuously. We have gone down these roads before and I am delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. However, it would have been better to debate this matter in Committee. At that stage, the decision was made that my letter, which I hoped was comprehensive, was sufficient for us not to be burdened with the debate. I would have been delighted if that position had been maintained. I shall now deal with the substance of the amendments. I hope that the noble Baroness will be assured that the concerns which she had on parity are not well founded. Her clear intention that this should be a situation which delivers parity of treatment and fairness is the case, and as a result I hope that she will not pursue the amendment. If she were to pursue it, as I made clear in my letter, that would, contrary to the assertions made by other counsel, put us at risk of being in conflict with our obligations. I am confident that Her Majesty's loyal Opposition would never wish to put the government of the day in that position and if they were ever to enjoy the burden of government, they would not wish to be put in that position themselves. I hope that I have reassured the noble Baroness with the letter written on 19 October and the letter of yesterday's date to which she and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, have kindly referred. If I have satisfied her, I hope that both she and the noble Lord will be content to withdraw the amendment and not bring it back.