Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, I do not believe that the person becomes a criminal. As I say, I am very conscious of not wanting to do that. It is not a criminal offence but a civil offence if he breaks that ABC. This is appropriate sequencing to capture the very small minority who are guilty of drinking in public. Amendment 108 would make any young person in possession of alcohol in a public place on three occasions in a 12-month period subject to this new offence, regardless of whether they had a "reasonable excuse" for possessing alcohol or not. As a general rule, we take the view that young people should not be in possession of alcohol in public. However, clearly there are some reasons why they might; I touched on them before. For instance, if they need to carry it as part of their job or are helping a family member to carry shopping, it is clearly quite acceptable for them to possess alcohol. It would also be acceptable for children to be given alcohol by their parents at a family picnic, as the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, mentioned. These are the sorts of things that we consider to be "reasonable excuses", so in these circumstances it is right that they do not count towards this offence. While I do not think that it would be right to remove "reasonable excuse" from this clause, I also do not think it is right to try to provide a list of excuses that could be used as a defence. The best way to ensure that this new power will be used effectively and appropriately is to leave what types of things may constitute a "reasonable excuse" to the guidance that will accompany this new offence. The police will then be able to use their discretion while having regard to that guidance. If we accepted Amendment 109, young people could be prosecuted only if they were caught with open containers of alcohol. This would make the new offence much less effective at tackling young people’s drinking in public and would raise all the same issues that we have had in the past with the police’s confiscation powers. The police currently have the power to confiscate from young people alcohol in open containers and in sealed containers if they believe that the individual intends to consume it. However, the police tell us that young people are using this requirement on the police to prove intent to consume to get around these powers. Too often, the police hear excuses such as, "It’s not mine, I was just holding it for someone else", or "I wasn’t going to drink it". This makes it very difficult for the police to confiscate alcohol even when they believe they have a good reason to do so. We should not underestimate how quick young people are to recognise where such workarounds may be possible, and I am certain that this amendment would have similar implications if it were accepted. It would lead to situations in which, as soon as the young people see the police, they will just throw away the open containers and pretend that they have not been drinking the alcohol or are holding it for a friend. Even though they might be in possession of significant quantities of alcohol and had already been caught drinking in public before, the police could not take any further action under this provision until they caught them with an open container. That cannot be right; it does not help local communities, it does not allow the police to help the young person in question, and it sends the wrong message. I understand noble Lords’ concerns; they do not want to see those who are carrying alcohol but have no intention of drinking it in public to be liable to prosecution. However, the amendment is unnecessary because, as I said in response to Amendment 108, the clause already allows young people to possess alcohol in public if they have a reasonable excuse. If they do not have a reasonable excuse for holding the alcohol, they should not be in possession of it, whether it is open or not. I understand the intention behind Amendment 109A, and although I am pleased with the endorsement that the amendment gives to the use of acceptable behaviour contracts, it would make the new offence in Clause 30 much less effective. We certainly want to see much greater use of acceptable behaviour contracts as part of our approach to dealing with young people drinking in public, but the amendment would mean that a young person could be prosecuted for this offence only if they had agreed to an ABC. ABCs are voluntary agreements, and the amendment would simply deter young people from signing up to them in the first place, knowing that doing so could prevent them from facing prosecution for persistently possessing alcohol in public. It is not right that young people who persistently drink in public and cause trouble can escape prosecution by simply refusing to engage with the ABC process. Similarly, for those involved in more serious alcohol-related disorder or anti-social behaviour, an ABC may not be issued. They may be instead given an ASBO. This amendment would have the effect of preventing those who had been involved in more serious issues and had received an ASBO, rather than an ABC, being eligible for prosecution for persistently possessing alcohol, even though by repeatedly possessing alcohol in public they may be causing serious problems. Furthermore, if breaching an ABC were to be included as a precondition, a statutory definition of an ABC would be necessary. This could be extremely difficult as they are purposely designed to be flexible, voluntary arrangements, which can vary widely across the country. We certainly would not want any definition to have the effect of standardising ABCs, as it is clear that their use must be tailored to local, and even individual, circumstances. I want to reiterate that we fully encourage the use of ABCs and would like to see them used more widely. We will issue new guidelines to the police, health and children’s services for dealing with young people’s drinking, including the use of ABCs and the new offence in Clause 30. But the very things which make ABCs effective—their flexible voluntary nature—means that it is not appropriate to include them as a statutory pre-requisite for this offence. Finally, I believe that the aim of Amendment 110 is to seek an explanation of those areas where possession of alcohol by a young person would count towards this new offence. However, this amendment, if accepted, removes the definition of public place from the Bill and would create unnecessary uncertainty. As I have already said, there are significant risks associated with unsupervised drinking, including crime, disorder and anti-social behaviour. We have therefore said that if young people are caught possessing alcohol in any place the public has access to, apart from licensed premises, or are caught in a place they have unlawfully gained access to, it should count towards this offence. We believe that this is wide enough to capture all the public places where young people drink, such as parks, estates or out on the street. We have explicitly excluded licensed premises because young people drinking on licensed premises are already covered by the Licensing Act 2003. Under Section 150, it is an offence to allow under-18 year-olds to consume alcohol on licensed premises unless they are 16 or 17 and it is with a table meal. However, the provisions cover the scenario where young people are caught in places which are not public but that they have unlawfully gained access to. We want to avoid the unintended consequence of encouraging young people to go underground and to drink in abandoned buildings, for example, where they may be even more vulnerable to the dangers that this sort of thing brings. Drinking in the home is of course also excluded from this offence. The YAAP makes it clear that drinking at home is a matter for parents and not for government. Our role is to educate young people and their parents as to the effects of alcohol on young people so that they can make an informed decision. To that end, earlier this year we consulted on draft guidance and guidelines for young people and their parents based on the Chief Medical Officer’s advice. The consultation showed that there was broad support for these guidelines and so they will form part of the new communications campaign next year. I believe that the areas we have set out where possession of alcohol will count towards this offence will ensure that the police can deal with public drinking by young people effectively. Accepting this amendment would create unnecessary confusion over whether somewhere is a public place or not and would make this clause ineffective. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked how the police will know that a person has been caught three times. Under Clause 29(3), a police officer may take the name and address of the person whose alcohol they are confiscating. That is how they will know a person has been caught three times in one year. It will be on the police record. The noble Lord also asked about people incriminating themselves. This clause will make a difference by giving young people the opportunity to stop drinking in public before they can be prosecuted for this offence. We have proposed a three-tiered approach, which sits alongside Clause 30, to help deter young people from drinking in public. One-off offenders should have their alcohol confiscated and, if it is contributing to an alcohol-related crime or disorder, they may be given direction to leave the area. Those who are caught for a second time may be subject to interventions such as an acceptable behaviour contract or, if it is very serious, an ASBO. Again, we may wish to see a parenting order to help deter future drinking. In most cases, we expect to see that the interventions may be sufficient, on the third occasion, to stop the young person persistently drinking in public. We do not believe that they are incriminating themselves, because the offence kicks in only if they are caught the full three times. Each individual case of confiscation before that will be dealt with as I have set out above. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked what we think of what the police think about Clause 30. Specifically, do they think it bureaucratic or unenforceable? It is a good question, as I understand that some of the police have concerns about all that recording of young people’s names and addresses, and whether that will add significantly to bureaucracy. However, I also understand from other forces that recording that information is already regarded as good practice and is done in many areas. On balance, it is probably nothing dramatic but something that can be done without too much difficulty. On the issue of the YAAP, about which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked, we announced in the youth alcohol action plan that, ""prosecution will require evidence of continued confiscation"," of alcohol and failure to abide by acceptable behaviour contracts, in so far as a breach of the ABC is concerned. We recognise that the proposed legislation differs from that announced in the youth action plan but, as I have said, we fully encourage the use of ABCs and our policy intention remains that they should be breached before this new offence is triggered. I think that I have answered the questions that were asked. We will be issuing guidance for this new offence, which will encourage the use of ABCs where appropriate, and on that basis—