Policing and Crime Bill

I do not have the figure at my fingertips. Unless the Box can provide it shortly I shall write to the noble Lord, but I will cover it if the information comes before the end of the debate. Some in the alcohol industry will argue that it is too early to introduce changes to this offence. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, did exactly that, given that the original offence came into effect only in April 2007. I disagree with that. The original offence was introduced before TUSAC, which clearly shows that despite repeated warnings some premises continued to sell alcohol to children. Some representatives of the industry have also said that reducing the number of underage sales in a three-month period from three to two is much too harsh, and that the new clause is disproportionate. We all accept that human error will occur and that people will make mistakes when determining whether someone is over 18, but the defence to this offence is that the person selling alcohol has taken reasonable steps to determine whether the person was under 18. That means that they simply ask for some form of proof of age. I agree that it would be disproportionate to penalise businesses for a genuine mistake by a single member of staff—that is why changing this offence as we propose still allows for a level of human error—but the change makes clear that those selling alcohol should ask for proof of age any time there is doubt and, where this does not happen and these sales take place more than once, it is right that the business should be held to account. A vast number of premises now run Challenge 21 or Challenge 25-type schemes and this clause cannot be considered disproportionate. Simply put, if you are not selling alcohol illegally, the clause will have no impact. But it will send a strong message that it is not acceptable to sell alcohol to children and that those who do will be punished. Earlier this year in Blackpool, an outlet of a major supermarket chain was found guilty of this offence. It was fined only £6,000 but, since then—I think because of social conscience more than the £6,000 fine, although that was important—it has introduced a Challenge 25 scheme across the whole country. I am pleased that many in the alcohol industry are taking steps to ensure that their staff do not sell alcohol illegally. The Challenge 21 or Challenge 25 schemes initiated by the industry are becoming widely understood by the general public. The hologram of the proof of age standards scheme, PASS, is also fast becoming an easily recognised feature of many student and other ID cards. The new clause, coupled with the excellent work the industry is doing, will send a clear message to those selling and those attempting to buy alcohol illegally that it will not be tolerated. As regards the question of how many people have been prosecuted, the offence of persistently selling alcohol to children, as I said, came into effect in 2007. No prosecutions were brought in 2007 and court proceedings data for 2008 are not available until later this year. I have covered the other one and so I am afraid I cannot add any more. I shall get back to noble Lords with the details of that. On that basis, I hope the noble Viscount will withdraw his objection to Clause 28 standing part of the Bill.