Coroners and Justice Bill

I had not intended to speak in this debate, because many of the things that relate to it were discussed during the debate just before the dinner hour. However, the more I thought about the Attorney-General’s response, the more troubled I became by the message that I got from it. Below the age of 18—and no differentiation seemed to be made between those who were 10 and 11 and those who were 17 or 18—there was, first, no persuasion that there was a problem or even a potential problem of injustice here. The difficulty that was adduced was that we should think about teenagers who produce knives and stab somebody and whether they should not be held responsible. We have to think seriously about the problems, but the idea that we should somehow hold 10 and 11 year-olds as responsible in the same kind of way as people in their twenties, thirties, forties or fifties seems to me extraordinary. One thing that we need to think about is that, physically at least, many children are becoming more mature earlier; the better they are fed, the more mature they become at an earlier stage. Therefore, the kind of ages that might have been appropriate for responsibility 20 or 30 years ago may be a little bit lower. On the other hand, children are now, through television, the internet and other things exposed to a degree of disturbing stimulation that may actually make it more difficult for them to cope with some of the stimuli that they are getting than children were before. I do not regard this as a simple matter; it is a complex and difficult matter. However, if one pulls back from it, does one really believe that it makes any kind of sense or justice to hold children of 10, 11 or 12 as responsible as when they are in their late teens or their twenties? People in this Parliament decided many years ago that they would change the educational system of this country because they did not believe that it was fair that decisions should be made about children’s educational capacity at the age of 10 or 11. I speak not about whether that was a good idea or other, but that was the decision that was made. The decision being made now is that children of that age can be made responsible for the most serious crimes that we can imagine. That seems to me to be an inconsistency of approach and understanding that I find difficult to struggle with. I do not suggest—and I know the noble Baroness does not either—that this amendment solves all the problems, but I did feel that it was necessary to come back, even after a short period of thought, to say to the Minister that I really think we have a problem here. It may be that perhaps we should be looking at the age of 13 or 14 if people find it difficult to say 16, 17 and 18-year olds, who get involved in all sorts of activities. There is such a profound difference between the child of 10 or 11 and the teenager of 17 or 18, that simply to lump them all together seems to me to be inappropriate, yet it seems that the arguments did that. The Government will undoubtedly appeal to the noble Baroness not to press her amendment; I appeal to the Government to take her amendment and the spirit of it back and to see what they can bring forward to satisfy us at a later stage.