Coroners and Justice Bill

It is with some diffidence that I follow the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I question whether lawyers necessarily come from Mars; I do not quite see myself in that sphere. Perhaps I should declare an interest as an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists; although I am never, rightly, allowed to practise. I am very concerned about the potential and actual injustice to a very small number of young people, aged between 10 and 18, who are caught at the moment, rare though it may be, by the fact that, as I understand it, psychiatrists are very cautious about finding a recognised medical condition as set out in Clause 42 in proposed new sub-paragraph (1)(1)(a). Therefore, if one requires a recognised medical condition in relation to a teenager, it would be likely, as I understand it, that a psychiatrist would hold that it would be very difficult to say that this is a recognised medical condition, because it may be an element of developmental immaturity. Consequently, at the age of 25, an individual might be seen to have a recognised medical condition, but at the age of 15 would not. Therefore, at the age of 15 that individual might be found guilty of murder, whereas at the age of 25 they would not be found guilty of murder. That, as a lawyer and not as a psychiatrist, is the nub of the problem. It is the young person who is disadvantaged compared with the adult under the proposed new sub-paragraph. It is a serious matter. If the Government are going to say that Amendments 151 and 154 are not appropriate, they have to grapple with the fact that it is almost impossible to tell the distinction between this developmental immaturity and a real recognised medical condition that would continue throughout adulthood. I do not know how the Government manage to do that. These two amendments—I do not think it matters which of them goes forward—make it possible to show that a child, or young person, within the age group to which that young person belongs, is exhibiting a degree of immaturity or possibly a recognised medical condition, that differentiates that young person from the normal young person who would be behaving in a normal way, which would be unlikely, among other things, to be committing murder. One has to recognise that Mary Bell and the Bulger murderers all behaved in quite extraordinarily bizarre ways, and when the psychiatrist saw them, as I understand it—though I have never read the reports—they had very considerable medical problems, and had had, of course, absolutely appalling upbringings. Whether or not, if this particular amendment was in place, they would have been found guilty of murder is another matter; but at least they would have had the opportunity for that situation to have been considered. It must be wrong in principle, and it must be unjust, that if you are 25 and you have a condition you will not be a murderer, but if you are 15 and have a condition that is difficult to diagnose, you will be a murderer. There has to be something wrong with that.