Coroners and Justice Bill

I am grateful to the Minister and indeed to other noble Lords for the responses and the arguments that have been adduced in the debate. I was, and continue to be, somewhat puzzled by the argument from the Government, which was used in the other place as well. They said there are lots of people who are helpful to the coroners and therefore there is no reason to single out medical examiners or to have a chief medical examiner or chief medical adviser. There is a whole section in the Bill on medical examiners, there is not a whole section in the Bill in respect of all sorts of other people that may be helpful to the coroner, and for a very good reason, because we are talking about medical certification of death. It seems to me that if there is going to be a national medical adviser or chief medical adviser—and from what the Minister has said it does appear that there will be one—I am puzzled as to what the argument is for not putting this in the Bill, because it is certainly one way of marking up the responsibility for leadership, accountability and a degree of authority. Therefore I am very grateful indeed to the Minister for indicating that his mind is not entirely closed to the possibility that it might be in the Bill. I have no doubt that if it is possible for us to have some discussions outside the Committee that we will attend to many of the inadequacies of framing which were rightly raised by the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. The importance of these amendments is to make the point about what needs to be done and it seems to me that has been made. I welcome the opportunity for further discussions, for without that there can be no question that something will come forward at a later stage and be pressed. This is a centrally important question for a whole series of reasons. There is a clearly a matter of substantial contention, and I and my colleagues share the view which has been put forward by a number of noble Lords, that a centralised service separate from PCTs provides a degree of independence, independence as perceived by the community—as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has said—but also independence in fact, because there is in that case much less likelihood of a conflict of interest. That is a serious matter should medical practitioners find themselves in that position, or in terms of how the community perceives it. There is a clearly a diversity of views in regard to this. The Government hold to their particular view and others, including us, hold to a different view as to what the service should be, so I have no doubt we will return to that matter as well. With regard to the position of chief medical adviser or national medical adviser being filled by a forensic pathologist, I would not hold absolutely to that. However, I did find the Minister’s response less than reassuring that actually someone who had an interest in industrial diseases might be able to advise suitably on the whole range of things that a national medical examiner would be able to advise the Chief Coroner on. It does not seem to me that that is a very reassuring response, and whether or not the qualifications should be in the Bill, we will think further about that and return to it. However on the question of appropriate standards, qualifications and courses, I hear what the Minister says about those being properly cited in the secondary legislation and we will study what the Minister said and return to that. With those remarks and that undertaking of further discussion on these important amendments and clauses, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 47 withdrawn. Clause 18 agreed. Amendment 48 not moved. Clause 19 : Medical examiners Amendments 49 to 63A not moved. Clause 19 agreed.