Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

My Lords, I really do not see why that should not be possible, if it were considered appropriate. I cannot go much further, but we would want the MMO to have discretion in that regard. It clearly needs to be able to appoint people or a person of the highest calibre and I would not want a situation such as the noble Baroness raises to get in the way of that. Equally, I am sure that we would want to be assured that the person appointed had the time and the ability to do what might be a very demanding job. To take the point raised earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, there is a great deal of research to be done and scientific evidence that we still need to have on the marine environment, so I would have thought that whoever was appointed would have not only a very important job but a busy one. On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, we intend there to be not micromanagement but simply an appropriate check and balance on how the organisation might wish to go on with the terms and conditions that the schedule lays out. In view of recent events relating to salaries paid in quangos, while one wants to avoid micromanagement, one wishes to ensure appropriate accountability. The noble Baroness should not read anything more than that into it. I may have been too quick to shake my head when my noble friend said that I had used the word "opinion". I apologise to him; I thought that he was referring to Amendment 9, whereas I used the word in relation to Amendment 18. However, I want to reassure him that that is not any old opinion but one that has been expressed after consideration of the evidence. I was speaking about opinion in that context, rather than saying, as he might have inferred, that any old opinion from anybody might have equal weight. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has a great deal of experience and has raised an important matter about how green planning integrates with other development plans, including those on the land. She referred to the overlap. I hope to reassure her that, during the detailed process of developing marine plans, plan authorities will be under a legal obligation to secure compatibility with other plans that overlap, are adjacent to or have some relevance to marine plans—including river basin and shoreline management plans and terrestrial plans—thereby facilitating integration. That will, clearly, require the plan authorities to work with other regulators, planning bodies and Administrations. We expect the MMO to build sound relationships with terrestrial planners, local authorities and regional planning bodies. I can reassure her that we are working closely with the Local Government Association, regional planning bodies and the Department of Communities and Local Government to see how that relationship might work and, indeed, what lessons we might learn from terrestrial planning. Marine plans in coastal areas will often slightly overlap with the areas of jurisdiction of local authorities. Different kinds of plans in coastal areas already overlap, so this is not a new issue. I am confident that together we can make it work. We have already discussed devolution. Just as I have overall been encouraged by the approach taken by the devolved Administrations wishing to make this work together in an area that is partly the responsibility of the UK Government and partly the responsibility of the devolved Administrations, I have been encouraged, too, by the approach of local authorities, which are equally committed to making this work. However, I take the noble Baroness’s point and I will make sure that this is given due consideration within my department and CLG. We will explore it further with the Local Government Association. I turn to the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. Perhaps I may say how relieved we are that, although he has ceased to be chairman of one body, he is now chairman of the Plymouth Marine Sciences Partnership. I pay tribute to the case that he made in Committee about science. He says that he is reassured that we see science as one of the underlying principles of sustainable development. I should also make it clear that we believe that the MMO needs to pursue an evidence-based approach to all its decision-making. As a decision-maker, the MMO is under a duty to take into account all relevant facts and matters, including those listed in new subsection (1B). It must also attach the appropriate weight to the different facts and matters taken into account. The type of evidence that the MMO will need to take into account will depend on the individual circumstances of each case and we have expanded on the kinds of matters that may be taken into account in Amendment 9. This should not be seen as an exhaustive list. Clearly, what is relevant in any particular case must be for the MMO to determine. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, asked the point of stipulating these matters and what weight they should be given. The fact is that putting these considerations in the Bill must in itself clearly give significant weight. The problem in the wording of the noble Lord’s amendment is that not everything will be relevant in every case. Our worry is about imposing a disproportionately onerous obligation on the MMO. The noble Lord’s second point was about the use of the word "appropriate" as opposed to "relevant" in proposed new paragraph (c). We see our wording as allowing slightly wider discretion to cover anything that the MMO might take into account. Something might be of relevance, but of peripheral relevance, and might not be appropriate. We do not think that the distinction between the terms indicates a significant difference of approach, although I am not sure that I have convinced the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, on that. He will understand the spirit in which I have tabled these amendments and why there should be some discretion, but I am happy to look into the detail to convince myself that we have got it absolutely right. I would be happy to discuss this matter further with the noble Lord between Report and Third Reading.