Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

My Lords, we were going well until the noble Baroness spoke at the end. However, I have been well aware of her views, and I appreciate the meetings that I had with her between Committee and Report. Overall, I thank the noble Lords who have spoken for their general welcome for the amendments—to some of which other noble Lords have put their names. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, both for his chairmanship of the Joint Committee and for the way that he has helped us to understand some of the problems with the original wording of Clause 2. Although it was probably technically correct, it struggled to get to the core to what the MMO is all about. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, thinks that we have not got there, but I think that we have made considerable progress. As for the treadmill and the tortuous drafting, I go back to our debate in Committee. I was a bit worried when the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, suggested that we were edging towards a definition of sustainability, but I will hold my nose and urge noble Lords to accept the government amendments. He will know that the reason for not defining sustainable development is that our understanding of what is sustainable is continually evolving. The UK Administrations have adopted the five shared principles, which set out a broad framework of sustainability: to live within environmental limits; to achieve a just society; to do so by means of a sustainable economy; good governance; and sound science. Those five principles have been expressed in our high-level objectives for the UK marine area. My amendment underpins that understanding of sustainable development in a way that can exist in legislation and which I hope will make clear to the MMO what is required, with the help of guidance and—again as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has suggested—with the opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny. He is right to say that it is very rare indeed for your Lordships’ House to reject a statutory instrument, but the fact that an SI has to come before Parliament ensures that very great care is taken before any SI is laid before your Lordships’ House. Clearly the same will be the case for the guidance to the MMO. The Government will listen very carefully to what Parliament has to say about the guidance; indeed, we would not move this amendment if that was not the intention. Again, I welcome the welcome given to Amendment 5 by noble Lords who have spoken. It must be considered in relation to the commitment that I made in Committee that a science advisory committee will be established; the two go together. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and other noble Lords, wished me to say something about the status of the chief scientific adviser and to say whether the appointment would be full-time. I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and give an absolute guarantee that, for all time, the chief scientific adviser will be a full-time appointment because there might be circumstances in which that did not happen. However, I hope that I can answer the substantive questions: will this person be senior within the MMO, and will they be able to make a significant contribution to the work of the MMO? I have no hesitation whatever in saying yes. The very fact that this appointment appears in statute is a visible indication of that importance. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, has huge experience in this area. My experience of the role of chief scientific advisers in a number of government departments in which I have now served leads me to say to your Lordships that the appointment of chief scientific advisers has been a huge advance in Whitehall in the advice that Ministers have received. In my experience, chief scientific advisers have ready access to Ministers, and their views and guidance are listened to very carefully. I expect the chief scientific adviser to the MMO to have the same kind of relationship. I am very happy to make that point this afternoon.