House of Lords Bill [HL]

We have been around the houses long enough so I should perhaps respond to the debate so far. I started, right at the beginning, by saying that the amendment was an open and transparent device. The device is to serve the interests of the Committee by enabling it to come to a clear decision as to whether, in principle, it favours these four reforms or not. That is being helpful to the Committee, rather than having endless debates on the 95 amendments that have been tabled to the Bill, 52 of them yesterday and the day before. It is reasonable that we have a debate on the purpose of the Bill, which is what I had hoped that we would provoke, instead of which we have had all sorts of other highways and byways, including an attempt to divide the Committee on the issue of whether we have an appointed or elected House. The Bill is not about that and its purpose is not about that. The way is still open. All three parties are committed to an elected House. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was correct that when we had a whole series of votes—I do not remember how many years ago now—on different permutations of election, I voted against them all except for 100 per cent election, which has always been the policy of my party. When the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, talks about his timetable, he is really offering it to the Government. He is not saying that the Conservatives would have a timetable on the issue if they came in. He said that the first thing we should do is to debate the White Paper, but that was published last summer. The noble Lord is a major part of the usual channels. Has he agitated every week to get a debate on the White Paper? No, I do not suppose that he has. We have made no progress whatever on this. As for the Minister telling us that the manifesto commitment will mean that we have early legislation, I remind him again that his party gave a manifesto commitment to have a statutory Appointments Commission not at the previous election but at the one before that. Eight years later, we still do not have that. What are the chances of getting a major reform of the House if we have to wait eight years even to get one part of the Bill that is before us today? The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—I think that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, touched on this—mentioned the 1999 promise on keeping the hereditary Peers. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, suggested that there was a trick in a private conversation between me and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. I assure him that there is no trick. I asked the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, whether I could refer to his views on this. He made me write it down on a piece of paper and I read out exactly the words that he agreed. I assure the Committee that his view is that this Bill can represent stage 2 of incremental reforms. I do not happen to know what his views are regarding the long term but we are not concerned abut those who think there should be an elected House and those who think there should be an appointed House.